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[Nubulax]

What is the current studio count? Don't they have like 30 compared to Sony's 20? Or am I remembering wrong? It seems to me they are in a strong position to compete without ABK if they get their studios in order. Or, am I giving them too much credit?

23 Game Studios according to their own site

 

[MasterCornholio]

Provide proof the CMA said 10 years wasn't enough. We haven't even heard CMA's response to MS's remedies yet. That's what we are waiting on.

I thought the CMA was already aware of the deal when they made that decision. I remember the 10 year deal with Nintendo was being talked about for a really long time.

 

[DrFigs]

This deal is good for their revenue and general business. But in terms of making Xbox more desirable to non Xbox gamers they still need to do a lot more work. All starts with must have exclusives.
[...]
But this is also why I think they should compliment the big titles with smaller and AA games, that should also be of a good quality ( the penitents and hi fi rushes, in between the main course star fields, hellblade 2s and forzas…) variety and quality at different scales.It seems like you just kind of think they're doing a good job right now.

It kind of just sounds like you agree that xbox is doing what they need to do right now to win people back. Down to having exclusives and smaller AA games. It's just kind of weird since you also wrote that they need to do a lot more work - but it's not clear what more you think they can be doing that they're not already doing.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

With the talent they have right now, they could turn things around and make it a dog fight until the end of the generation just like Sony did in the ps3 days. But it’s MS and now that they see a gold mine in gaming they want to eliminate uncertainty by whatever means necessary.

It would be difficult.

Look at what Sony is doing with their studios and IP. They're about to hit the next level. Microsoft hasn't even obtained where sony was in the late 2000s. They're nearly 20 years behind in studio maturity. That's not something you can just flip the switch on.

I'd still say Nintendo makes the best 1st party games but Sony is closer to catching Nintendo than Microsoft is of catching Sony.

We're going to see how their maturity allows them to do more varied games though, it could blow up in their face as they pivot towards this GaaS trend.

Think about competing with Naughty Dog in 2009. You have to put out a game as good as Uncharted 2. Now think about competing with Naughty Dog in between 2013-2016 while they're producing the last of us and Uncharted 4 pretty much at the same time. NOW think about competing with Naughty Dog in 2022 to 2024 where they're almost certainly working on a major MP game, a major new IP, put out a remake of one of their most popular titles, and porting that to PC, and could at some point be bringing in TLOU3 and working with a sister studio on an Uncharted game... AND having just helped produce Uncharted Movie and TLOU TV show....

There is not a single studio that Microsoft has right now that can do all of this.

Meanwhile, you look at Insomniac who just did Ratchet and Clank Rift Apart, Miles Morales and are going to put out Spider-Man 2 and Wolverine... That's insane production. Miles, Spider-Man 2, and Wolverine... that's a minimum of 30 million units sold, but more likely in the range of 45 million units. That's from ONE studio... And who knows if they're working on something like Sunset Overdrive for PS5 and PC or a remaster of the Resistance series or a reboot...

This is all new in Sony's history and it took studio expansion and maturity to get there. Is there any major studio working on AAA games for Microsoft seeing crazy growth right now? You look at iD Software, MachineGames, and Bethesda and they're all flat or negative on linkedin.

 

[DarkMage619]

Steam did not sign a deal.

Apparently they didn't need one Gabe Newell trusts Microsoft to honor their word.

Gabe Newell trusts Microsoft after Call of Duty commitment to Steam, even if the FTC doesn't

Maybe Microsoft can call on him as a character witness.

dotesports.com

No one can point to even one deal MS violated in the gaming space despite the narrative pushed by some.

The FTC has a 100% win record over 25 years in the administrative court process. That’s where MS-ABK is right now.

You continue to bring this up yet ignore that the FTC can overrule any decision the administrative court comes up with. Pretty easy to have a 100% win record when you control the final outcome. Now tell us their win record in federal court where they CAN'T overrule the outcome. Here is a start:

Meta acquisition of Within reportedly approved by court in loss for FTC

The FTC sued to block Meta's acquisition of Within in July, arguing Meta was using the deal "to buy its way to the top," rather than compete on its own merits.

www.cnbc.com

I thought the CMA was already aware of the deal when they made that decision. I remember the 10 year deal with Nintendo was being talked about for a really long time.

The CMA only recently got the formal responses to their findings. It doesn't matter what was talked about in the media if it wasn't formally submitted.

 

[MasterCornholio]

The CMA only recently got the formal responses to their findings. It doesn't matter what was talked about in the media if it wasn't formally submitted.

The 10 year deal is considered a behavioral remedy correct?

 

[MasterCornholio]

Iam trump supporter.


Also thank you for explaining why US invade British.

OK can't say I'm surprised that your gone. Anyways when you come back please refrain from saying things like that.

 

[Topher]

You’re still ignoring his whole argument about how divesting Blizzard makes no sense.

I'm ignoring nothing. That was an entirely separate point. Hoeg is discussing the three different structural remedies proposed by the CMA. Yes, Hoeg makes a point that the third item, divesting Blizzard, doesn't make sense as Blizzard hasn't been a point of contention. That is an entirely different argument than when he is talking about point two, divestiture of Activision, where he falsely claims it isn't feasible since "Activision Blizzard King is in the Call of Duty business".

 

[reinking]

23 Game Studios according to their own site

NM. I figured it out like a big boy.

 

[demigod]

Let's kind of be frank here. They didn't have much before the Zenimax purchase.

Bungie left
Rare is not who they used to be
Epic was 2nd party, but they also parted ways
Lionhead studio was closed
Ensemble was also closed

They had a minority stake in Bizarre but sold that and the studio also went under. Ironically it was purchased by Activision.

Zenimax is a big deal for them especially adding in id Software and Bethesda, but it's not enough and the majority of the rest of the studios are entirely unproven.

Closing down Lionhead was a huge mistake. Letting Amazon buy Double Helix was another.

 

[freefornow]

He isn't. He does commercial law, not corporate law.

From Linkedin:

Rick's practice is focused on the areas of general corporate formation, governance, and finance with particular emphasis on entrepreneurship, venture capital, and mergers and acquisitions. He has worked extensively with start-up and mid-stage enterprises, including those in the life science, software, and technology fields.

Well, he knows more than me about mergers and aquisitions.

EDIT: aaand, 5 pages late!

 

[reinking]

I've seen this commentary bandied about quite often.

Does anyone actually think the quantity of studios is more than the quality of studios or quantity of quality studios?

You look at Naughty Dog, Insomniac, and Santa Monica studios, and the reality is that aside from Bethesda (who we haven't seen really work in a 1st party environment) none of Microsoft's studios come close to matching this quality and more importantly all three of these studios are hitting a new level fo maturity that again no Microsoft studios have.

All three studios are working on multiple AAA projects and if you take a look at Guerrilla and Sucker Punch, even those two rank significantly higher than the studios that Microsoft has going for them.

Ask yourself has any Microsoft studio (again with the exception of Zenimax studios) produced anything original to their studio and as successful as Horizon or Ghost of Tsushima? Both of which Sony are going to try to turn into transmedia properties?

Microsoft's biggest IP are as follows:

Minecraft
Halo
Gears of War
Forza
Flight Simulator

Halo hasn't been as good as it was since Bungie (who ironically Sony now owns). Minecraft isn't really a AAA game or exclusive (at this point) and wasn't an original Microsoft IP. Gears of War hasn't been as good since Epic worked on it. Forza is still lagging behind Gran Turismo commercially, and Flight Simulator is relatively niche for what it is.

Sony could have purchased Ninja Theory and had no interest, but apparently, that counts in favor of Microsoft's 30 studios. Again, quantity matters, but quality is much more important.

It's like trying to say Haven is equivalent to Insomniac because they're both 1 studio or that Haven + Firesprite + Savage games is better than Naughty Dog because that's 3 to 1.

It's just a silly argument. You have to look at the individual studios and what they bring to the ecosystem.

With the Zenimax/Bethesda deal they added a large number of quality IPs to their portfolio. Why would I not think MS has capable studios? They have a fantastic stable of studios.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

I don’t know if this got posted - but anyway just in case. Just a vid from a channel called reforge about misreporting of this ongoing negotiation.

Wow, this is an excellent discussion on this topic.

 

[laynelane]

Retarded. Disigenuous. Purposely obtuse. Cultists. Pick one or more?

I think gullible might be applicable too. The 'appeal to authority' fallacy has been in full-swing for a while now.

 

[mansoor1980]

I don’t know if this got posted - but anyway just in case. Just a vid from a channel called reforge about misreporting of this ongoing negotiation.

facts

 

[gothmog]

It would be difficult.

Look at what Sony is doing with their studios and IP. They're about to hit the next level. Microsoft hasn't even obtained where sony was in the late 2000s. They're nearly 20 years behind in studio maturity. That's not something you can just flip the switch on.

I'd still say Nintendo makes the best 1st party games but Sony is closer to catching Nintendo than Microsoft is of catching Sony.

We're going to see how their maturity allows them to do more varied games though, it could blow up in their face as they pivot towards this GaaS trend.

Think about competing with Naughty Dog in 2009. You have to put out a game as good as Uncharted 2. Now think about competing with Naughty Dog in between 2013-2016 while they're producing the last of us and Uncharted 4 pretty much at the same time. NOW think about competing with Naughty Dog in 2022 to 2024 where they're almost certainly working on a major MP game, a major new IP, put out a remake of one of their most popular titles, and porting that to PC, and could at some point be bringing in TLOU3 and working with a sister studio on an Uncharted game... AND having just helped produce Uncharted Movie and TLOU TV show....

There is not a single studio that Microsoft has right now that can do all of this.

Meanwhile, you look at Insomniac who just did Ratchet and Clank Rift Apart, Miles Morales and are going to put out Spider-Man 2 and Wolverine... That's insane production. Miles, Spider-Man 2, and Wolverine... that's a minimum of 30 million units sold, but more likely in the range of 45 million units. That's from ONE studio... And who knows if they're working on something like Sunset Overdrive for PS5 and PC or a remaster of the Resistance series or a reboot...

This is all new in Sony's history and it took studio expansion and maturity to get there. Is there any major studio working on AAA games for Microsoft seeing crazy growth right now? You look at iD Software, MachineGames, and Bethesda and they're all flat or negative on linkedin.

Buying more publishers isn't going to fix that. Writing large checks in most cases will cause you to acquire a hollowed out version of that company. The ones with incentive now have retirement level money. The ones that don't are typically upset they didn't get a piece and will leave for greener pastures. You can offer retention incentives but all that does is delay things.

The thing that might work is offering incentives to actual third parties to deliver quality exclusives. Sony does this where they hire a company to do something with the understanding that they might be acquired if they produce a hit. It keeps the management intact to drive the game forward. It introduces the team to the concept of working closely with the acquiring company.

The problem is I don't think Xbox is very healthy as a parent company. They have plenty of talking heads and technologists, but seem to lack middle management that have the technical and logistic experience to "get shit done".

 

[IFireflyl]

It was entertaining for awhile, and still is at times. My personal favorite is after a few pages of the same users echoing each other, they then proclaim things such as the last couple of pages show just how out of touch some people are, or that people are having meltdowns. As though it wasn't themselves making all the posts.

This same group of people repeatedly state that the deal is dead, and that the CMA has already basically killed the deal outside of anything but divestiture. Others will confirm this as though it were fact, either by like or quote.

Of course once someone says that the deal will pass, they wholesale mob the person with passive aggressive ban attempts by demanding a source and claiming they were pretending to be an insider.

It is what it is though. It's the reason why that particular group of fanboys is the laughingstock of gaming the same way Apple fanboys are.

You cry a lot. Hope you got your TV fixed.

Spoiler: For reference

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/i-desperately-need-some-sympathy.1650901/

 

[Edmund]

I don’t know if this got posted - but anyway just in case. Just a vid from a channel called reforge about misreporting of this ongoing negotiation.

It's sad that this video is 2 days old and only has 5.9k views. People don't want to listen to the truth.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Buying more publishers isn't going to fix that. Writing large checks in most cases will cause you to acquire a hollowed out version of that company. The ones with incentive now have retirement level money. The ones that don't are typically upset they didn't get a piece and will leave for greener pastures. You can offer retention incentives but all that does is delay things.

The thing that might work is offering incentives to actual third parties to deliver quality exclusives. Sony does this where they hire a company to do something with the understanding that they might be acquired if they produce a hit. It keeps the management intact to drive the game forward. It introduces the team to the concept of working closely with the acquiring company.

The problem is I don't think Xbox is very healthy as a parent company. They have plenty of talking heads and technologists, but seem to lack middle management that have the technical and logistic experience to "get shit done".

They need to buy themselves time that they don't have.

Very different situation from Sony.

They need games yesterday. They need to be able to have studios essentially wipe their books clean and start fresh without tech debt. You can't do that in the middle of developing games.

Sony for the most part doesn't take on tech debt, because they don't have to.

 

[DarkMage619]

The 10 year deal is considered a behavioral remedy correct?

Yes. Any remedy that doesn't require MS to break up the asset it is acquiring is behavioral.

 

[ToadMan]

I thought the CMA was already aware of the deal when they made that decision. I remember the 10 year deal with Nintendo was being talked about for a really long time.

They were and specifically commented on that 10 year deal in the PF document already - 7.264 below. But if you read from page 143 onwards the CMA talk about all of this.

In summary, the CMA don’t like these deals because over time the ability to enforce them diminishes.

Oh and they throw shade on MS’s ability to deliver an equivalent experience on Switch here for good measure.

Bear in mind this document predates the MS response from last week.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

With the Zenimax/Bethesda deal they added a large number of quality IPs to their portfolio. Why would I not think MS has capable studios? They have a fantastic stable of studios.

This looks like an impressive list until you realize half the studios haven't done anything of commercial note and another quarter of them are pretty average.

You can tell microsoft doesn't believe in these studios because almost all of them are flat lined in terms of growth or negative. I think the coalition is one of the only ones that isn't flat, but we have to keep an eye on whether that changes in coming months.

If you look at Sony, depending which studio, they're pretty aggressively hiring, with the exception of santa monica and firesprite who just published games.

 

[BeardGawd]

It was entertaining for awhile, and still is at times. My personal favorite is after a few pages of the same users echoing each other, they then proclaim things such as the last couple of pages show just how out of touch some people are, or that people are having meltdowns. As though it wasn't themselves making all the posts.

This same group of people repeatedly state that the deal is dead, and that the CMA has already basically killed the deal outside of anything but divestiture. Others will confirm this as though it were fact, either by like or quote.

Of course once someone says that the deal will pass, they wholesale mob the person with passive aggressive ban attempts by demanding a source and claiming they were pretending to be an insider.

It is what it is though. It's the reason why that particular group of fanboys is the laughingstock of gaming the same way Apple fanboys are.

The circle jerk in here is insane. Rational thought is very rare in deed. They will insult, mock, bully, dogpile anyone that doesn't think like them. All because they can't stand the thought of Playstation having some real competition.

 

[ToadMan]

<snip>

You continue to bring this up yet ignore that the FTC can overrule any decision the administrative court comes up with. Pretty easy to have a 100% win record when you control the final outcome.

I’m not ignoring it - that is exactly my point. MS will lose in the administrative court process if it gets that far.

Now tell us their win record in federal court where they CAN'T overrule the outcome. Here is a start:

http://[URL][URL]https://www.cnbc.c...empt-to-block-meta-acquisition-of-within.html

[/URL][/URL]

Tell me, what is the relevance of the verdict in this case to the MS-ABK acquisition?

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

The circle jerk in here is insane. Rational thought is very rare in deed. They will insult, mock, bully, dogpile anyone that doesn't think like them. All because they can't stand the thought of Playstation having some real competition.

Not liking the deal and wanting it to fail is not analogous to "can't standing the thought of playstation having some real competition".

Many of us want a more competitive Microsoft by improving their first party output naturally with the studios they already have and fixing whatever issues cause them to get delayed or of lesser quality, rather than buying out the biggest publisher in the business in a completely unnecessary move that does nothing to progress gaming forward.

 

[X-Wing]

Not liking the deal and wanting it to fail is not analogous to "can't standing the thought of playstation having some real competition".

Many of us want a more competitive Microsoft by improving their first party output naturally with the studios they already have and fixing whatever issues cause them to get delayed or of lesser quality, rather than buying out the biggest publisher in the business in a completely unnecessary move that does nothing to progress gaming forward.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

They were and specifically commented on that 10 year deal in the PF document already - 7.264 below. But if you read from page 143 onwards the CMA talk about all of this.

In summary, the CMA don’t like these deals because over time the ability to enforce them diminishes.

Oh and throw shade on MS’s ability to deliver an equivalent experience on Switch here for good measure.

Bear in mind this document predates the MS response from last week.

The same is true of the Nvidia deal. The blatant mistruth of this bringing CoD to 150 million new users is laughable, which is why I was surprised that the EU (rumored) to have bought into it.

 

[ToadMan]

Wow, this is an excellent discussion on this topic.

Yeah seemed ok.

Jez Corden’s response was … interesting.

Apparently this Reforge guy was banned from Twitch about 2 years ago - I guess around the same time as Dr Disrespect and coincidentally when the Angry Joe stuff was blowing up, for alleged sexual harassment.

Does that make his opinion on this less relevant? Presumably Jez Corden thinks so since he raised that topic, and why Jez didn’t think to actually talk to the points raised in the video?

Well you can make up your own mind

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Not liking the deal and wanting it to fail is not analogous to "can't standing the thought of playstation having some real competition".

Many of us want a more competitive Microsoft by improving their first party output naturally with the studios they already have and fixing whatever issues cause them to get delayed or of lesser quality, rather than buying out the biggest publisher in the business in a completely unnecessary move that does nothing to progress gaming forward.

Their studios have a mountain of tech debt and their contractor policies make things even more difficult. You combine this with the need for system-selling games toot sweet...? It's a bad combination of games growing in scope but missing sprint objectives, which undoubtedly causes delays. Inject contractors coming and going as per Microsoft policy and now all of a sudden you've lost the expertise and manpower to address a sprint later in the dev cycle, which means everything gets thrown off.

This is a reason why people have suggested that Microsoft move to Unreal Engine across the board, but that's pretty costly too.

 

[gothmog]

They need to buy themselves time that they don't have.

Very different situation from Sony.

They need games yesterday. They need to be able to have studios essentially wipe their books clean and start fresh without tech debt. You can't do that in the middle of developing games.

Sony for the most part doesn't take on tech debt, because they don't have to.

It's going to be difficult to fix. This is one of those MCU/DCEU things where DC tried to fast forward success and it is was obvious they're both outclassed and out planned by the competition. Just like WB they had plenty of money to try and force it and why some of the movies had financial success overall it was a flop.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Yeah seemed ok.

Jez Corden’s response was … interesting.

Apparently this Reforge guy was banned from Twitch about 2 years ago - I guess around the same time as Dr Disrespect and coincidentally the t Joe stuff was blowing up, for alleged sexual harassment.

Does that make his opinion on this less relevant? Presumably Jez Corden thinks so since he raised that topic, and why Jez didn’t think to actually talk to the points raised in the video?

Well you can make up your own mind

Ah yes, digging up garbage in the past and not addressing what he's talking about at all.

Glad someone is calling out these guys like Jez for the garbage they spew constantly on twitter, not doing any sort of reporting but being a corporate propagandist.

 

[reinking]

This looks like an impressive list until you realize half the studios haven't done anything of commercial note and another quarter of them are pretty average.

You can tell microsoft doesn't believe in these studios because almost all of them are flat lined in terms of growth or negative. I think the coalition is one of the only ones that isn't flat, but we have to keep an eye on whether that changes in coming months.

If you look at Sony, depending which studio, they're pretty aggressively hiring, with the exception of santa monica and firesprite who just published games.

...but why should the market have to compensate for XBox previous failings? With that said, I still believe these studios are very capable of producing quality content. It is up to Xbox to manage them so that they are productive.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

It's going to be difficult to fix. This is one of those MCU/DCEU things where DC tried to fast forward success and it is was obvious they're both outclassed and out planned by the competition. Just like WB they had plenty of money to try and force it and why some of the movies had financial success overall it was a flop.

I think it's considerably worse than that.

DC has actually made quite a few very financially successful movies. Dark Knight Trilogy, Man of Steel, Wonder Woman, Aqua Man, Joker.

Similar management mistakes, but it's easier to wipe the slate clean with movies. Look at Joker and The Batman... Look at Marvel Phase 4.

Microsoft has to overcome tangible issues with their code bases.

Imagine if Sony tried to immediately integrate Bungie into PlayStation Studios and in doing so said, you've got to use Decima engine...

I mean Bungie needs to figure out their own tech debt, but this isn't the first time they've needed to, but for now they're on the outside of PlayStation Studios and nothing they do negatively impacts these other studios.

Look at Sony Bend, they don't really have an engine of their own and given their geography it makes sense to use Unreal engine for recruiting. It's exactly what CDPR is doing now too. They're trying to wipe away the tech debt that got them in trouble with cyberpunk and recruit their way back to the top, even if it means bringing in international developers.

CDPR can do this because they don't need to sell a console. Do you know who does? Microsoft.

The idea that Bethesda was going to be ready for next gen so quickly despite their size and history... We'll see how they come with Creation Engine 2... but their lack of display for the game should give people pause. You'd think Microsoft would be forcing them to show stuff, but they aren't... because seeing it early would cause backlash just like we saw with Halo Infinite, Gotham Knights, and Suicide Squad.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

...but why should the market have to compensate for XBox previous failings? With that said, I still believe these studios are very capable of producing quality content. It is up to Xbox to manage them so that they are productive.

I never said the market has to compensate for them. I'm saying Microsoft has every incentive to try and bring in more quality content and faster. I don't have faith in their current studios to turn anything around and you can tell that they don't either. They're downsizing across the board or staying flat.. despite being so early into the console cycle, and despite not having released much so far.

 

[Gone]

Thanksgod. Imagine MS leading this market with their missmanagement of studios and still missing to delivery triple A high quality sp games?

It would be a disaster.

Ms can compete and can lead but they need to prove themselves first with games first. No, an indie like hi fi rush will not change that.

Oh a Sony fanboy telling people what makes a good game, imagine my shock.

Not every game has to be a 3rd person action adventure game with some artificial "deep touching message", and that's why Sony are crying over an FPS game because guess what? It's fun to play.

 

[Sanepar]

Oh a Sony fanboy telling people what makes a good game, imagine my shock.

Not every game has to be a 3rd person action adventure game with some artificial "deep touching message", and that's why Sony are crying over an FPS game because guess what? It's fun to play.

Yeah i Sony fanboy who has a PC and Xbox Series X lol and not even a playstation. I would by sales people prefer what Sony delivers and yes Sony delivers high quality games for who enjoy sp games.

Microsoft has since 2017 a service they delivery all their games day one and didn't move 1% in their favor. So yes audience is major with Sony.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

With the Zenimax/Bethesda deal they added a large number of quality IPs to their portfolio. Why would I not think MS has capable studios? They have a fantastic stable of studios.

what is the source that image?

 

[reinking]

what is the source that image?

Google.

 

[knocksky]

What happened to the Xbox fans cheering that COD was going exclusive as soon as the deal was announced? They all changed their tune when Phil signaled they need to pretend it won't so they can get this deal through, just like the Zenimax one. Kinda like how they were spouting BS about how Series X was going to blow away PS5 in every DF comparison, by 30% or more, only to change their tune when it didn't happen. It became, "Why do you guys care about these comparisons so much?"

As for your question, we learned about the backroom deal MS was trying to push on Sony, where they take COD away after this gen, while publicly acting like they would never take it away. Of course, the regulators didn't like that, so they tried to make it 10 years. In other words, if MS gets COD, it WILL be taken away from its largest audience, PS gamers. Fortunately, it seems like the CMA isn't quite down for that.

Yeah, the Xbox fanboys have gone quiet regarding exclusivity.

What backroom deal are you referring to? I must have missed that

 

[BrutalTruth_]

Yeah, the Xbox fanboys have gone quiet regarding exclusivity.

What backroom deal are you referring to? I must have missed that

I have seen 0 people cheer any "exclusivity" with CoD.

Everyone knows you can't make CoD an exclusive, they'd lose so much money, where are your getting your info? Twitter?