I mean ya sure that would be freaking awesome and all. I just fear that the character rendering wont be anywhere near that in fidelity to wear they will end up deep deep in the uncanny valley if so.
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Graphical Fidelity I Expect This Gen
- Thread starter ResetEraVetVIP
- Start date
I mean ya sure that would be freaking awesome and all. I just fear that the character rendering wont be anywhere near that in fidelity to wear they will end up deep deep in the uncanny valley if so.
Johnny Concrete
Member
20min render time is still pretty far from realtime..
Wait? 20 mins for the pathtracer not lumen right?
StueyDuck
Member
I know I'm a 100 years late... but got a good chuckle out of clicking the original OPs link only to see they are banned on the mentally disabled site haha
On topic. I really don't expect much in terms of visual fidelity leaps this gen as I do more refinement.
Raytracing is relatively still in its infancy for real time rendering and these consoles aren't nearly strong enough to fully utilize it.
Also gamers are getting use to 60 and performance modes. Games are going to get more refined rather than push limits.
I expect whatever Rockstar is cooking will kind of set precedent. RDR2 still looks way better than most "next gen" games.
I think horizon FW is a good sample taste of what is most likely to be expected. Guerilla are great at tech, killzone shadowfall still looks incredible and it was a launch ps4 game
On topic. I really don't expect much in terms of visual fidelity leaps this gen as I do more refinement.
Raytracing is relatively still in its infancy for real time rendering and these consoles aren't nearly strong enough to fully utilize it.
Also gamers are getting use to 60 and performance modes. Games are going to get more refined rather than push limits.
I expect whatever Rockstar is cooking will kind of set precedent. RDR2 still looks way better than most "next gen" games.
I think horizon FW is a good sample taste of what is most likely to be expected. Guerilla are great at tech, killzone shadowfall still looks incredible and it was a launch ps4 game
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PeteBull
Member
Indeed, we can forget about tekken 1 to tekken 3 jumps here, i think if midgen consoles get introduced we can srsly expect some impressive stuff, like looks of similar quality like matrix demo running in 60fps, but on those 2020 machines, with heavily gimped raytracing and overall not too much of gpu/cpu power, it wont be ez to get matrix demo quality looking games even at stable 30fps somehow in 1440p even.
Path tracing is very heavy , yes , won’t be real-time anytime soon, but it looks outstanding in Unreal. Lumen is also very impressive real-time. I am busy with setting up scenes in lumen , you get a close enough real time impression about how it’s going to look, and let the path tracer render the scene .
Johnny Concrete
Member
No the pathtracer took 17 hours
Holy Shit that disclaimer at the end.No the pathtracer took 17 hours
I thought lumen was only for Realtime hmmmm...somethings not right.
64 samples is alot more than Lumens usual (what was it like 1 sample I think).
I also think realtime lumen atleast on PC epic setting does a good enough job in realtime. Im not sure whats the point in this guys comparison. If ya care enough about quality and its gonna be offline baked anyways then go with the pathtracer everytime.
It's 20 minutes for Lumen and over 17 hours for Path Tracing. It was total of 1200 rendered frames, so with Lumen you have whooping 1fps at 1080p with 4090.
H . R . 2
Member
I agree but I wasn't referring to lighting but Levlolution which got severely downgraded after BF4. as for the art direction, I agree again , you're absolutely right
I also agree that Valhalla was very GPU-heavy but what makes Unity look far superior to me was the fact that it was both CPU- and GPU-heavy. Before Valhalla, we already had games with amazing 'Draw Distance' such as Just Cause3/4 and RDR2
but Unity revolutionised AI density and behaviour AS WELL AS looking phenomenal which makes it far more impressive than Valhalla especially when you consider the time it came out
I appreciate your view . Hitman1 was understandably and obviously more advanced in so many ways because it came out years later and has now been even overhauled
however, they clearly stopped developing their engine thinking that it had become 'good enough'for the new entries. for example, if you take a look at shadow quality and clothes textures /shaders in H:A [something devs bragged about back then] you'll see a massive downgrade. the recent entries' clothes and facial features look cartoonish and don't even come close to HA. the lighting in absolution was baked, albeit, more natural and realistic. the biggest downgrade, however, was the animation system. H1,2,3's animations are so stiff it reminds me of the original The Sims
so yes I agree there have been upgrades but when comparing when these entries were released it makes you think how the recent ones look inferior in many areas and how much more advanced they should have been visually
as for the 'noire' feel, we are 100% in complete agreement. couldn't have said better myself
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Hmmm you post just sparked a memory of when I first played Hitman2015 and how when I choked out my first guard the animation of him clawing at my arms seemed significantly less intense and seemed to he missing something. I quickly shrugged it off as just me remembering H:A's choking animation being way more real and even sometimes uncomfortable to watch (in a good way
) but now after reading your take I think you maybe right. Im gonna have to replay H:A again to be sure but it seems my first gut reaction maybe was correct. Super sad if true
H . R . 2
Member
I am personally super sensitive to and critical of animation quality, it wasn't just the garroting animation, everything about 47's animations seemed off as if there were no motion capture of any kind. very stiff and mechanical.Hmmm you post just sparked a memory of when I first played Hitman2015 and how when I choked out my first guard the animation of him clawing at my arms seemed significantly less intense and seemed to he missing something. I quickly shrugged it off as just me remembering H:A's choking animation being way more real and even sometimes uncomfortable to watch (in a good way
I considered that a huge disrespect to a character known for his finesse and panache in movement and execution. the contextual animations were also incredibly inaccurate and basic [half of 47's body showing from behind the wall]. and don't even get me started on how they kept changing his face from H1 to 3, or the fact that they locked all his tools [attache case, gloves] behind contracts and forced replayability,...or how they emphasised the 'fun' aspect of gameplay by constantly showing him in ridiculous-looking costumes to appeal to the 'Dead Rising' crowd...or making every effort to make him look like James Bond [they really did mention that]
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100% well said.
Them changing the tone into a softer James Bond instead of the dark nhilistic cyinical tone the 1st 5 has pissed me off to no end. One of the worst changes.
Dont get me started on how the music played into that. We went from every level having its own Masterpiece score from Jesper Kyed in his prime to a generic 007 theme that not only doesnt match but still hasnt been updated and has been used in all 24 levels over 3 games now. I appreciate that the music is interactive but did they have reuse it in every damm level for a whole trilogy...shit fucking sucks. Also Diana talking in your ear like she moneypenny.
Some others too...
- No Breifcase Sniper rifle assemble and diassmeble animations.
- No Newspaper with descriptions of event during level.
- Realtime cutscenes replaced with what at first was atleast high quailtiy but was quickly downgraded even further into a a "literal" slideshow.
- preventing you from carrying more than 3 weapons.
-making levels so huge that there not as fun and ykur constantly getting lost forcing you to take the "holdings hands" approach via diana and following waypoint indicator like pavlov just to beat the level at an actual fun pace.
- this also lead them to have 2-3 contracts for every level just to provide "value" further bloating out the pacing.
- contract details being only delivered via a blatantly bond inspired cutscene instead of the way they did it in past with you required to overlook clues and just photo which was more immersive, cooler, and frankly far more respectfull of players intelligence.
I dont want tot sound like it all bad. The gameplY loop since Absolution which was further developed with "new" hitmanis def the best its been with way less failstates requiring save scumming. Its just if they can fix just a few things here and there, get Jesper back, and change the goddam tone and Noire style back shit would be my favorite.
Tomi
Member
Atm no, i hope something will change, but i have doubts
H . R . 2
Member
that's why we need ND
the average dev would say 2 animations would be more than enough, one to open the door slowly and one for pushing the door open quickly
I am sure most would not even consider transitions
Kabelly
Member
then people wonder why games take so long to make. This is just doors.
It's the same thing I saw in the GTA 6 leaks. There was a clip of a dev just walking in an out of a door testing it.
Now they have to do that for every door in a huge open world. Plus from what we saw in the leaks it looks like there will be a lot more interiors.
SlimySnake
The Contrarian
you dont have to do it for all doors. just do it for one door and apply the same logic for all doors of the same type in the game.
H . R . 2
Member
I think what he means is that you need to have different animations for different types of doors
it is interesting, GTA6 is now the only game no insider seems to be speculating about
will it be revealed in the Playstation showcase? it has to be revealed somewhere. it's either that or E3.
but since Sony and Rockstar have always been partners, my money is on the Showcase
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It's things like that clip that make ND top dogs (pun intended) in the videogame industry. Seriously, they put in so much time and effort creating different animations to open/close doors. Their attention to detail is second to none next to Rockstar.
Yeah I saw that GTA6 leak and I said to myself "what the hell is that guy exactly doing?" Now I know. As I mentioned above Rockstar and ND's attention to detail is unmatched in the industry.
Serious question, can you actually do that? apply the same logic/animation for all doors? even if it was of the same type that's hella cool and saves a lotta time.
It's funny after the abundance of leaks that we got it's all super quiet all of a sudden. I think R* did some fantastic damage control honestly, we are still as curious about the game as ever whilst not really knowing how it will look like despite having actual videos of the game itself.
Edit: I really doubt R* will showcase their game at E3, they always snubbed E3 and really doubt they will show it off at PS's event either. My money is them releasing a teaser trailer detailing when will the game be showed off, then a trailer of the game itself. It will drop on their social media accounts outta nowhere and my money is on November for the date.
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Kabelly
Member
sure you apply the same logic but you don't think they need to test every door to make sure it actually worked? i hardly believe they just ctrl + v and call it a day.
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SlimySnake
The Contrarian
Door is just an object. If they use the same object in the level, it should contain the same properties.
Unless its a different type of door.
Feel Like I'm On 42
Member
But it looks better than FH5 and the lighting is atleast on par with GT7 (better on some tod and worse on others). But GT7 is sacrificing lots of things to get that lighting running like in game car models, track side details, trees, reflections,... And we have yet to see the weather in game to judge how it looks. The track side detail alone looks a generation better than any other sim racer.
Also, rt Gi ...doesn't it really need to be seen while playing instead of youtibe video? The dynamic nature of RT GI is what makes it so impressive. Seeing everything react the way it should to light bounce. I love only ever experienced this with Metro Exodus but games with lesser gi systems, the lighting doesn't feel alive like that.
So maybe we can't see it yet.
Feel Like I'm On 42
Member
This. The consoles are weak in terms of what they'll be able to do with rt. Metro Exodus had to sacrifice tesselation in order to hit dynamic 1440p/60.
SlimySnake
The Contrarian
This is why I never cared much for RT reflections, AO and shadows. I want to be able to tell the difference immediately. like if i turn it on, it should look different. Reflections are the only instant difference but you only see them like 10% of the time in most games. I remember BFV literally had one map with buildings and only one building had reflections.
Spiderman Miles is still the only game that was designed around reflections with almost every mission taking place indoors in shiny floors. Even control which used RT for like six different visual features wasnt a night and day difference.
Feel Like I'm On 42
Member
Don't forget- they botched the HDR in Hitman 3 and never bothered to fix it!! Io sucks!
Feel Like I'm On 42
Member
This is why I never cared much for RT reflections, AO and shadows. I want to be able to tell the difference immediately. like if i turn it on, it should look different. Reflections are the only instant difference but you only see them like 10% of the time in most games. I remember BFV literally had one map with buildings and only one building had reflections.
Spiderman Miles is still the only game that was designed around reflections with almost every mission taking place indoors in shiny floors. Even control which used RT for like six different visual features wasnt a night and day difference.
Do u think RT gi is a noticeable difference though?
This is why I never cared much for RT reflections, AO and shadows. I want to be able to tell the difference immediately. like if i turn it on, it should look different. Reflections are the only instant difference but you only see them like 10% of the time in most games. I remember BFV literally had one map with buildings and only one building had reflections.
Spiderman Miles is still the only game that was designed around reflections with almost every mission taking place indoors in shiny floors. Even control which used RT for like six different visual features wasnt a night and day difference.
From what I can tell RT is really all about the GI. That's an immediate, night-and-day, practically generational difference. All the rest it's pretty hard to notice, honestly. Reflections can look cool but how anyone can think it's worth sacrificing 60fps for I've no idea.
TheRedRiders
Member
Changes on a game by game basis. Metro Exodus for example looks gorgeous. Witcher 3 on the other hand looks mildly better with RTGI, expect for certain indoor environments. I remember there were several debates surrounding whether Demons Souls was leveraging RT, which says a lot. The developers eventually confirmed it didn't.
RT is not worth the performance hit in my opinion, despite what Nvidia marketing has people believe.
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SlimySnake
The Contrarian
I mean i am shitting on Forza's lighting saying it still doesnt look as GT7 so no.
I bought an RTX 2080 prebuilt PC after watching Alex's Metro Exodus review back in 2019. I plugged it in and honestly couldnt tell the difference. Alex just chose the areas with the biggest differences but 99% of the time in the open world you cant tell because the lighting model itself is the same. The only thing different is the lightbounce. Now granted they ended up 'fixing' it three years later but ive seen matrix with software Lumens and RT Lumens, and the difference is very minor.
There is a reason why TLOU has better lighting than Metro Exodus. Exodus has more 'accurate' lighting but it isnt better. Forza will have more accurate lighting but not better. I want better. Realistic lighting is boring anyway. Part of the reason why Horizon stands out is because they dont go for realism and have everything cranked up to max. During the day, it's bright and beautiful at all times. At night, the moonlight is bright and beautiful. Games arent supposed to have these muted color schemes just like how movies go out of the way to put rain in every scene and hire the best cinematographers.
TheRedRiders
Member
I noticed something similar on Witcher 3, when I turn RTGI on at night everything becomes so dark it's almost unplayable.
CamHostage
Member
Agreed to a point, but in a racing game, you probably want accuracy instead of "hero lighting" tricks cinematically maneuvered to look gorgeous at all time. Lighting/SFX would still need a lot of cheats to enhance the beauty of the cars and the sense of speed, but the closer you can get to visuals without artifacts to betray the eyes, the better for a visual experience aiming for representing the "real world", or at least car commercials and race replay cam footage.
...But having grumbled about Forza Motorsport myself not impressing me either, I don't know if "accurate" can be accurate enough this gen to ever beat "better". (Forza looks decent in screenshots, and the deformation/damage systems are outstanding, but to me the lighting is bland and limited, despite the advanced tech, making much less of an impression than what I had hoped a "real next-gen game" would look like.)
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Turk1993
Member
This is why I never cared much for RT reflections, AO and shadows. I want to be able to tell the difference immediately. like if i turn it on, it should look different. Reflections are the only instant difference but you only see them like 10% of the time in most games. I remember BFV literally had one map with buildings and only one building had reflections.
Spiderman Miles is still the only game that was designed around reflections with almost every mission taking place indoors in shiny floors. Even control which used RT for like six different visual features wasnt a night and day difference.
You trippin again man, what looks not good in those Forza gifs lighting wise? And if you can't see the RT reflections in action in those gifs than you shouldn't be calling yourself a graphic whore lol. And comparing static tod games like TLOU2 vs games with dynamic tod is just stupid. Because in games with static tod you can raytrace the level and accurately recreate the lighting with standard lighting and touch up some parts with color and texture to give that bounce lighting effect. Games with dynamic tod can't do that so they require a more advanced lighting technique to light the level accurately and make it look good. It is a big achievement for games with dynamic tod to look good and be compared with games with static tod. Dev working on games with static tod can choose the best looking lighting settings and pre bake it on that level and fake shadows and what not.
Also RT played a big rol in Control, there where lots of instances that the normal SSR couldn't work. And im not even talking about the other RT settings
Turk1993
Member
RTGI is only for Forzavista mode from what i know so far. But there is a chance that they unlock it on pc in gameplay also like Forza Horizon did with RT reflection on pc.
Hawking Radiation
Member
But it looks better than FH5 and the lighting is atleast on par with GT7 (better on some tod and worse on others). But GT7 is sacrificing lots of things to get that lighting running like in game car models, track side details, trees, reflections,... And we have yet to see the weather in game to judge how it looks. The track side detail alone looks a generation better than any other sim racer.
Holy shit this is pretty fucking amazing. Can't imagine this on PC with extreme settings.
Piggoro
Member
I'll respectively join another camp: for me, the more realistic lightning/shadows/scene the better. Even to the detriment of the artistic and expressive "oumph".
SlimySnake
The Contrarian
you must love watching soap operas then. ;p
Piggoro
Member
Hah! Nah, I was talking exclusively about games.
Still impressive., almost @ 0.02 fps or 51 seconds per frame. This stuff used to take hours. Another few cranks of Moore's law and AI neural rendering / denoising will get us there in ten years.No the pathtracer took 17 hours
Also crazy with lumen achieving 1 fps, to think that this level of light simulation and rendered samples can be at your disposal in a mere second.... wnat a time to be alive!
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His point is that Lumen is now to the point where it's good enough for archviz, unless you have lots of glass surfaces. Of course depends on the client, etc.
As a sports gamer who is fascinated by animations and physics and at the same time annoyed that we have not made great strides in this department, this is great to see:
Fluid animations also greatly enhance graphics. It is about time we have made some great strides in the animations department.
Fluid animations also greatly enhance graphics. It is about time we have made some great strides in the animations department.
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GymWolf
Member
From past trailers it looked as nextgen as my sweaty ballsack, but people have different meanings of what constitute nextgen nowadays, i heard this guy once that was impressed by a fucking torchlight effect, can you believe it?
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Hold on to your Papers
For me if its not realtime lumen then you should always aim for top accuraccy. So I would allways go for the pathtracer then.
SlimySnake
The Contrarian
I understand it can be a bit tough to keep up with these diverging arguments, but it's important to understand the distinction. In the post you quoted, you have your answer... it does not look as good as GT7's lighting despite using RT. That's it. Just in the last page, I said it looks good. But in comparison, and when talking about the impact of RT lighting it's fair to compare a game with RTGI and a game without RTGI (GT7) to drive home the point that it isnt a NOTICEABLE difference like FeelsLikeIm42 asked me.
Again? Why does it matter if its Dynamic or static tod? TLOU2 looks better than Metro. Plain and simple. Who cares if one game has dynamic or fake lighting if the final product looks better? Again, we are talking about the impact of RT lighting, RT reflections and RT Shadows, and whether or not they are worth it. Look at RDR2, Horizon 2 and tell me if their dyanmic time of day looks better or worse than even the new version Metro which uses RTGI.
It is simply not essential especially when the performance takes a huge hit. If RDR2 and HFW implement RTGI in their game, would it look more accurate? Yes. But when their last gen non RT systems offer equivalent or better results, who cares?
That control screenshot is hilarious. Devs used to have screenspace reflections and now they dont even bother. I played control on PC on day one. It had SIX different RT settings and reflections was the only one that was noticeable. Reflections are the one thing that make a perceptible difference. Im pretty sure I brought up Miles just on the last page. Dont want to repeat myself.
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