Dust-by-Monday
Member
So you're saying things should just stay how they are? Faux-K/60 with no other improvements? Interesting. I guess we'll never leave last gen behind.
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Graphical Fidelity I Expect This Gen
- Thread starter ResetEraVetVIP
- Start date
saintjules
Member
Supposedly that was only happening in replay mode. But could be the first pieces of Photorealism someday.
Coolwhhip
Neophyte
To me changes that cause a drop below 60 fps aren't improvements, they are bad trade offs. I'm sure games will still look better anyway in the coming years, even at 60 fps.
CamHostage
Member
Maybe, but as DF said, the motion of the camera was a big aspect of what made it seem photo-realistic; the same course in a stillframe looks clearly carved out of polygons and with lots of elements that don't at all hold up to scrutiny as real if you look at them. For instance, look at the bike... what metal or plastic are those parts of the steering wheel made of?
In motion, however, and with light playing over all the surfaces (plus reflections on the wet or shiny surfaces), your eyes accept it much more as reality. I always think of Gears of War when I think of the magic of motion, how in the Roadie Run it goes from pretty-good-looking to almost reality (for its gen) because it gets close to the character, it blurs the motion a bit, and it adds a desperate wobble to the viewpoint, all as if a cameraman was trying their best to keep up with the action. It suddenly less a "video game" than it is "cinema made interactive". You can almost see it happening in the moment with the animation below. (I didn't find a good Gears GIF, but this clip from The Order shows a run and also a melee move, and the look of the scene vacillates from videogamey to cinematic, as despite being superb quality, the slightly-off physics and PS4-era character models don't quite hold up against reality when the camera is the normal game camera... but then when jostle and focus starts to fight to frame the scene, it gets startlingly real, especially when the 'cameraman' loses sight of both subjects in the violence of the chaos.)
A game could go this farther than we're used to with its sense of reality, and next-gen could conceivably push things forward with like an "AI Cameraman" who isn't just following the script of the scenes but instead is trying to capture the moments on scene as they happen. But... Would that be good for games? Would abstractions of visibility be beneficial? Would gamers allow a little less accuracy of their technique (since it's harder to see) and more fatigue in eyesight (if not outright motion sickness over time,) in order to have a more 'realistic' game? Adding in the color grading techniques of Ride 4 (which blows out the details in order to replicate a camera's shot, or more specifically how color-correction is applied to popular 'beauty shots' of filmed footage), you have a number of effects here which obviously can be done in game engines and could conceivably be done in-game (I'm not sure if there's anything specific about the Ride 4 replay which requires horsepower beyond what the gameplay mode needs?), but it might not be a desired way to play the game for most players.
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ResetEraVetVIP
Member
Great post. My thoughts exactly. It looks real when abstraction is on screen blurring uncanny assets.
In motion, however, and with light playing over all the surfaces (plus reflections on the wet or shiny surfaces), your eyes accept it much more as reality. I always think of Gears of War when I think of the magic of motion, how in the Roadie Run it goes from pretty-good-looking to almost reality (for its gen) because it gets close to the character, it blurs the motion a bit, and it adds a desperate wobble to the viewpoint, all as if a cameraman was trying their best to keep up with the action. You can see it happening almost in the animation below from a similar game. (I didn't find a good Gears GIF, but this clip from The Order shows a run and also a melee move, and the look of the scene vacillates from videogamey to cinematic, as despite being superb quality, the slightly-off physics and PS4-era character models don't quite hold up against reality when the camera is the normal game camera... but then when jostle and focus starts to fight to frame the scene, it gets startlingly real, especially when the 'cameraman' loses sight of both subjects in the violence of the moment.)
A game could go this far with its sense of reality, and next-gen could conceivably push things forward with like an "AI Cameraman" who isn't just following the script of the scenes but instead is trying to capture the moments on scene as they happen. But... would that be good for games? Would abstractions of visibility be beneficial? Would gamers allow a little less accuracy of their technique (since it's harder to see) and more fatigue in eyesight (if not outright motion sickness over time,) in order to have a more 'realistic' game? Adding in the color grading techniques of Ride 4 (which blows out the details in order to replicate a camera's shot, or more specifically how color-correction is applied to popular 'beauty shots' of filmed footage), you have a number of effects here which obviously can be done in game engines and could conceivably be done in-game (I'm not sure if there's anything specific about the Ride 4 replay which requires horsepower beyond what the gameplay mode needs?), but it might not be a desired way to play the game for most players.
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ResetEraVetVIP
Member
We are nowhere near the limit in graphic fidelity.
xPikYx
Member
Agree, And people talk about diminishing return lol, we are indeed nowhere close to that
SlimySnake
The Contrarian
Id argue that we wont even hit dimishing returns when we have 100 tflops consoles in 2035. You can always do more. Add more. We are only just now hitting photorealism in environments at 10 tflops. Photorealistic character models are probably still 30 tflops away. Then you can start thinking bigger. Bigger battles. Bigger setpieces. Ready Player one should be required viewing for everyone on gaf because it shows just how far behind we are from games emulating movies and larger than life experiences.
Most games settle for small skirmishes. 10 A.I enemies vs 1 human player and maybe 2-3 AI NPCs. Games like Warzone and Battlefield pit 100 players against each other and have them spawn on the opposite end. The scale in games is severely lacking. And it will continue to be the case until we finally hit photorealism. Then and only then will devs branch out and start to innovate.
Even the chase scene in Ready Player One has so much going on. Dozens of cars + T-Rex + King Kong + Giant Wrecking Balls + A Train Crash + Destructible environments. ND is the best at these chase sequences and as good as they were in TLOU2, they were still very limited. Hell, MGS4's Act 3 chase sequence is far more impressive still.
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Dust-by-Monday
Member
I would love to, but 1080p looks horrible on my 4K screen.
You bought a bad 4k tv then, even middle of the road $1000 ones can do amazing upscaling to 4k. Samsung Q80T, has awesome upscaling, and that's not even expensive in Canada.
TL;DR: Yea you can buy a 4k TV for under $1K but you shouldn't because reasons.
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GymWolf
Member
That gif is the perfect example of why some of us are mad that crossgen games are still a thing.Id argue that we wont even hit dimishing returns when we have 100 tflops consoles in 2035. You can always do more. Add more. We are only just now hitting photorealism in environments at 10 tflops. Photorealistic character models are probably still 30 tflops away. Then you can start thinking bigger. Bigger battles. Bigger setpieces. Ready Player one should be required viewing for everyone on gaf because it shows just how far behind we are from games emulating movies and larger than life experiences.
Most games settle for small skirmishes. 10 A.I enemies vs 1 human player and maybe 2-3 AI NPCs. Games like Warzone and Battlefield pit 100 players against each other and have them spawn on the opposite end. The scale in games is severely lacking. And it will continue to be the case until we finally hit photorealism. Then and only then will devs branch out and start to innovate.
Even the chase scene in Ready Player One has so much going on. Dozens of cars + T-Rex + King Kong + Giant Wrecking Balls + A Train Crash + Destructible environments. ND is the best at these chase sequences and as good as they were in TLOU2, they were still very limited. Hell, MGS4's Act 3 chase sequence is far more impressive still.
Not saying that you can have something like that on a ryzen 2, but sure as hell you can't have that on a fucking jaguar\old ass gpu\slow af hard disk.
Kenpachii
Member
Graphic Fidelity I Expect Next Gen.
It reminds me a lot of Square. It has a reminiscent style of Kingdom Hearts III and a little FFXV and if they could pull those visuals off on PS4 then PS5 isn’t out of the question. Some of the high quality spell effects have also been seen from Square in the Forspoken trailer which is imo the...www.resetera.com
That is my thread on ResetEra created april of 2020 before next gen consoles released. It has input from actual devs etc in the industry. Insomniac, Microsoft, Digital Foundry, DICE, Moon Studios etc.
I still consider TLOU II to be the one of the best looking games EVER made overall, counting animation, sound, graphics etc. This thread is to discuss future graphics and to show the best from the industry.
Game looks very much this gen. Everything in the world is low polygonal and lightning is flat as hell same for reflections etc, but the detail in the background and anything not where you look at drops off drastically engulfed in small hub areas with no npc count or anything really to render.
What tlou2 does good and sony in general is animations and faces and specially the faces require a ton of dialing back everything else and even that is up for improvement as everything still looks very gamy and limited.
From the start of this generation with killzone shadowfall + the order + unity we basically already maxed out this generation. We didn't saw much improvements other then limiting scope to push more detail forwards, or simple make games run worse to push more detail into the screen anything that required a little bit complexity and the old gen consoles died out the next day.
What needs to happen first are basic things that developers still are not getting right and this is where this generation should focus on heavily:
1) We need engines that can maximize and optimize games through AI by itself so developers no longer have to do this. So for example they drop 1000 citizens in a city that all move there trajectory, the engine should calculate and do everything itself to make the experience most convincing and learn this from behavior of camera's placed in a real city. so it learns and makes the games do whatever those humans are doing. AI should be used big time on anything even model movements from real life people that walk, even modeling itself towards creating most of the game on the fly. The inputs from developers should be very basic to the point development will move forwards far far faster.
2) Hardware (no matter what u got) should be used to a 100% taxation always, games shouldn't require you to ask for settings, it should detect the hardware u got and maximize for FPS u want to see and simple increase the quality that goes along with it. ( DLSS is a good example of boosting performance but its in my vision just childs play with what AI can actually do in games and development. i have no doubt in 20 years from now AI is making most of the games itself, and ai is used with selflearning to make worlds fast with tiny groups that are extremely realistic )
3) We need far more powerful hardware that can render actually detail that isn't just in the front of your screen, most game worlds all fall apart the moment u look 10 meters away from where u are, they are heavily flawed or lack tons of detail. I call it hub games that just drop you in a hub with some basic background details and call it a day. It's terrible how slow we are with progression on this manner and the reason for this is mainly no competition in the PC market ( fixed now ), and the focus on static hardware that never changes.
4) We need to figure out how we can drop huge amounts of players in the same game without tanking the performance. For example we are still stuck in 16-32-64-128 player worlds with limited detail. We need to up this to 1000's if not 100.000's that all play on the same servers. Why are we all playing cyberpunk, in all our own world and not why is cyberpunk not a huge server where actual people make up the population like GTA online for example so u can actually talk and interact with people, that run there own clubs and RP quests for you that always change. U will come back towards this forever ( FF / GTA5 Online / goldshire ) but far more advanced. Why do i talk to dead npc's in a scripted game, when i can talk with a character that actually sounds and interacts on my questions and rps forwards. More dynamic and interesting gameplay that could be different everytime u log in.
5) We need to stop focusing on consoles for advancements, or consoles need to start releasing there generational hardware upgrades far faster or actually start paying attention and invest in next generation hardware like they used too. All the talk about SSD's and a little bit of RT here and there is all pointless. AI should be the big investment and big focus and they should open departments to start pushing hard into this segment with there own servers or rented servers to push this forwards big time on every level. DLSS is childplay on the AI segment. AI is the future and the only solution really.
We are very much still in the pre industrial revolution everything has to be made by hand with making games, we need to move forwards drastically on this front and UE5 isn't going to deliver that. We need to move far faster forwards on this front if we want to actually get somewhere in the upcoming decade instead of more of the same shit.
SlimySnake
The Contrarian
Meanwhile devs:
Horizon Forbidden West director claims the PS4 version hasn’t held the game back | VGC
“I don’t think the cross-generation development was limiting in any way”…
www.videogameschronicle.com
I think ambition is a big problem in dev studios nowadays. Everyone is ok making games they are used to, not taking risks. Everything is focus tested to oblivion. Deathloop, Godfall, Forspoken are all next gen only. And yet they all look cross gen. Play like PS3 era games. Look exceedingly mediocre. It's a shame. There is a great line in the movie Prestige that encapsulates everything Christopher Nolan wants from movies, or wants his audience to experience.
Most game developers dont give a shit about wowing us anymore. They are content with telling their stories that they think are oscar worthy when they arent even good enough for streaming tv shows. They are content with Far Cry level design filling the world with menial tasks to keep us busy instead of truly giving us that moment of wonder. The GaaS genre took that one step further and removed any kind of real shock and awe you might experience by making you play the same game over and over again for months.
Even good devs like Kojima, Rockstar, Guerrila Games, Bioware and Naughty Dog who would lead the next gen charge gen after gen have gone missing. When Kojima first revealed MGS2, it changed video games forever. When he first revealed MGS4, the PS3 didnt even have a GPU. 6 months after he was fired, he literally borrowed an engine from Sucker Punch and produced an incredible reveal. It's been 2 years since Death Stranding and he stiil hasnt shown anything.
I am hearing some big AAA games that have yet to be announced are cross gen. Cant say which one since Im bound to secrecy but its incredibly disappointing to see unannounced games in 2022 being held back.
Lol you think we’ll only be able make a 10x GPU compute leap in 15 years?Id argue that we wont even hit dimishing returns when we have 100 tflops consoles in 2035. You can always do more. Add more. We are only just now hitting photorealism in environments at 10 tflops. Photorealistic character models are probably still 30 tflops away. Then you can start thinking bigger. Bigger battles. Bigger setpieces. Ready Player one should be required viewing for everyone on gaf because it shows just how far behind we are from games emulating movies and larger than life experiences.
Most games settle for small skirmishes. 10 A.I enemies vs 1 human player and maybe 2-3 AI NPCs. Games like Warzone and Battlefield pit 100 players against each other and have them spawn on the opposite end. The scale in games is severely lacking. And it will continue to be the case until we finally hit photorealism. Then and only then will devs branch out and start to innovate.
Even the chase scene in Ready Player One has so much going on. Dozens of cars + T-Rex + King Kong + Giant Wrecking Balls + A Train Crash + Destructible environments. ND is the best at these chase sequences and as good as they were in TLOU2, they were still very limited. Hell, MGS4's Act 3 chase sequence is far more impressive still.
Tbh I expect ps7/xbox6 to be at least 250, especially considering the crazy rumours going around about next gen MCM gpus
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Sosokrates
Report me if I continue to console war
Id argue that we wont even hit dimishing returns when we have 100 tflops consoles in 2035. You can always do more. Add more. We are only just now hitting photorealism in environments at 10 tflops. Photorealistic character models are probably still 30 tflops away. Then you can start thinking bigger. Bigger battles. Bigger setpieces. Ready Player one should be required viewing for everyone on gaf because it shows just how far behind we are from games emulating movies and larger than life experiences.
Most games settle for small skirmishes. 10 A.I enemies vs 1 human player and maybe 2-3 AI NPCs. Games like Warzone and Battlefield pit 100 players against each other and have them spawn on the opposite end. The scale in games is severely lacking. And it will continue to be the case until we finally hit photorealism. Then and only then will devs branch out and start to innovate.
Even the chase scene in Ready Player One has so much going on. Dozens of cars + T-Rex + King Kong + Giant Wrecking Balls + A Train Crash + Destructible environments. ND is the best at these chase sequences and as good as they were in TLOU2, they were still very limited. Hell, MGS4's Act 3 chase sequence is far more impressive still.
I remember when brad wardell said at the end of the X1/PS4's life we would get visuals like lord of the rings battle scenes and the battle of naboo with the droids vs the jar jar binks creatures
I doubt we will reach those visuals this gen
SlimySnake
The Contrarian
Havent heard any rumors about the MCM GPUs, but Moore's law is real and seeing as how we had a 5x leap over the 1.84 tflops PS4 after an 8x leap from the PS3, I am pretty sure we will be lucky enough to get a 40 tflops PS6 in 2027. Or 4x while MS goes for 5x or 50 tflops.
Technically there was a 35 tflops GPU on the market last year, and consoles settled on 10-12 tflops. yes, BS Nvidia tflops but even the biggest RDNA 2.0 card was 25 tflops. I am sure there will be 250 tflops GPUs in the PC market in 2035 or 100 tflops GPUs in 2027 but I dont see them in consoles.
In two years, Sony is due for a PS5 Pro. They will likely aim to get 20 tflops or 2x boost like they did with the Pro. With the chip shortage the way it is, they might delay it to 2024, but in 2023 the best they can do is a 5nm 20 tflops 6800xt. I just dont see how they will be able to go anywhere above 50 tflops in 2027 in a console form factor. They should be at 3nm by then and will likely settle for 40-45 while MS goes for 50 tflops.
Dust-by-Monday
Member
So you're telling me, I should set my console to 1080p and let my TV upscale the picture? Otherwise, the console does the scaling as it always outputs 4K regardless of what the game is doing. Hahaha.
In other words, why would I want to set my 4K screen to output a 1080p picture and have my TV upscale it to 4K? The TV's upscaling capabilities don't mean jack if the console always outputs a 4K signal and the game's internal resolution is different.
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Wait so now you're using the 4k settings, and THOSE look bad?
You're not making any sense.
ResetEraVetVIP
Member
Nah I agree. 1440P 30 LOCKED or 60 FPS LOCKED is a great and upscale it to 4K like Spiderman MM and TLOU II on PS5. 1080p is just too blurry. I have a LG C1.
Sosokrates
Report me if I continue to console war
Meanwhile devs:
Horizon Forbidden West director claims the PS4 version hasn’t held the game back | VGC
“I don’t think the cross-generation development was limiting in any way”…
I think ambition is a big problem in dev studios nowadays. Everyone is ok making games they are used to, not taking risks. Everything is focus tested to oblivion. Deathloop, Godfall, Forspoken are all next gen only. And yet they all look cross gen. Play like PS3 era games. Look exceedingly mediocre. It's a shame. There is a great line in the movie Prestige that encapsulates everything Christopher Nolan wants from movies, or wants his audience to experience.
Most game developers dont give a shit about wowing us anymore. They are content with telling their stories that they think are oscar worthy when they arent even good enough for streaming tv shows. They are content with Far Cry level design filling the world with menial tasks to keep us busy instead of truly giving us that moment of wonder. The GaaS genre took that one step further and removed any kind of real shock and awe you might experience by making you play the same game over and over again for months.
Even good devs like Kojima, Rockstar, Guerrila Games, Bioware and Naughty Dog who would lead the next gen charge gen after gen have gone missing. When Kojima first revealed MGS2, it changed video games forever. When he first revealed MGS4, the PS3 didnt even have a GPU. 6 months after he was fired, he literally borrowed an engine from Sucker Punch and produced an incredible reveal. It's been 2 years since Death Stranding and he stiil hasnt shown anything.
I am hearing some big AAA games that have yet to be announced are cross gen. Cant say which one since Im bound to secrecy but its incredibly disappointing to see unannounced games in 2022 being held back.
This is interesting, I sometimes think this too, where pushing the medium is rare and new games are small evolutions.
However the reason why this may be happening is that the more realistic and ambitious games get the harder it is to make even more impressive games.
Hopefully as time goes on games will start to be more impressive.
Its to bad that most sony exclusives next year are just PS4 games with slightly better visuals. Im hyped for Starfield, I expect similarly fedelity to something like demon souls remastered.
There may not be some big thing this gen which clearly seperates it from the prior gen. It may just be small visual improvements and quality of life improvements.
ToTTenTranz
Member
This is the problem with using floating point theoretical maximum throughput as means to measure GPU performance. I guess at some point many people believed the PS4 was "only" 40% faster than the XBox One, when in reality the 40% difference in compute throughput was actually the smallest spec difference between the GPUs. The PS4 has almost twice the fillrate, and the XBOne's 32MB eDRAM at 100GB/s duplex weren't fast nor flexible enough to compensate for the much lower lower memory bandwidth. Most of all, Microsoft didn't make the process of using 32MB eDRAM very easy (like today's RDNA2 PC GPUs using Infinity Cache as LLC completely transparent to the developer), which is why some developers don't even make use of it nowadays.
The gaming performance difference between the PS5 and Series X is negligible in comparison.
To be brutally honest, I think Guerrilla's director isn't being very honest here, and he's doing some PR move.
Regardless, what was he going to say? Yes the game doesn't look nearly as good as it could because we needed to support the PS4 as well.. ?
Dust-by-Monday
Member
What's not making sense?
I have a 4K screen. Why would I want to set my system to output at 1080p? Does anyone actually do that on their 4K screens?
SlimySnake
The Contrarian
Starfield is my only hope, but Bethesda doesnt have a great track record with graphics. Still, the trailer being completely realtime devoid of any cutscene tools gives me hope.
Wish more devs that started game development in 2017 had targeted next gen specs like Starfield.
Sosokrates
Report me if I continue to console war
Well skyrim was impressive when it released. And Fallout 4 actually had decent visuals, the environments were detailed for an open world and it had all the graphical features that were prevalent last gen.
SolidQ
Member
Look at history.
1. PS4 Radeon 7850(60) that similar Radeon 6950/6970
2. PS5/Xbox similar Radeon 5700XT/RTX2070S/2080
That mean perfomance will be in PS6 like Radeon 9700XT(not pro from 2002
), with similar perfomance like Radeon 8800\8900P.S rumors also says Radeon 7700 wil be faster, than 6900XT/RTX 3090
ResetEraVetVIP
Member
SlimySnake
The Contrarian
Its definitely in-engine. Most likely pre-rendered. If it was realtime, they wouldve said so.
However, the devs released a lot of info about the engine and the graphics. The tech is definitely advanced and if there are downgrades, they might only be on consoles this time around since PC GPUs are more than capable of ray tracing being utilized in every scene.
They are also using the SSD to fly faster than ever before and to create maps denser than ever before. They are using the CPU for wildlife A.I and all the destruction they can cause during stampedes. Even if it gets graphically downgraded, it will be more next gen than anything announced so far based on those things alone.
ResetEraVetVIP
Member
SlimySnake
The Contrarian
I told you all Photorealism was possible this gen.
xPikYx
Member
Finally that Killzone Shadow fall moment has arrived, welcome to the fu***in next gen people
3liteDragon
Member
This is only just the beginning people.
xPikYx
Member
We just had to wait one year after console release.....hahaha, before it was happening pre release , now post release
BlackTron
Member
The question is, what era level of CGI?
We have already easily passed Toy Story with real time graphics but it won't be as easy to match Pixar's work from 20 years later.
BlackTron
Member
Every time someone raises the point that nobody can get a PS5, I remember the fact that PS5 is the fastest selling PlayStation of all time.
Look, you can make some reasonable arguments for cross gen games, but nobody owning a PS5 isn't one of them. More people own the system than any prior PS during the same period. The fact that many more people still want one doesn't change this fact!
Sosokrates
Report me if I continue to console war
The only difference the PS5 version will have is hero lighting on Aloy, more grass, barnicles etc, higher res/framrate.
Like FH5, I think people will be surprised how similar the ps4 + ps5 versions look.
Not representive of current gen.
3liteDragon
Member
Idk, this looks much better than HZD on PS4 so I'm guessing that's what FW will look like on the PS4 as well. I'm expecting a major difference between both versions but this on PS5 (while it looks impressive) is definitely not representative of current-gen.
Halo is Back
Member
Tschumi
Member
Sosokrates
Report me if I continue to console war
Yep pretty much what I said.
But people have different definitions for what "much better looking" means.
To me cross gen games is basically like playing last gen games on a decent PC.
Which is certainly a welcome upgrade, but I consider "much better looking" more akin to a generational upgrade.
Though diminishing returns has some what muddied the waters. Im beginning to care less and less about visual improvements. Im more interested in gameplay, animation and A.i improvements, also great narritives.
ResetEraVetVIP
Member
Poly budget will be way lower...no water caustics...textures lower...etc. I say it will be a significant difference..we'll see.
Sosokrates
Report me if I continue to console war
They aren't going to do all different models for the PS5 version. I bet There will different levels of vegetation, tessalation etc but they wont be making completely different assets.
ResetEraVetVIP
Member
Horizon Forbidden West director claims the PS4 version hasn’t held the game back | VGC
“I don’t think the cross-generation development was limiting in any way”…
www.videogameschronicle.com
RPS37
Member
I think ZD is 4K/60 on PS5 but FW is 4K/30 on PS5 :’(Horizon Forbidden West director claims the PS4 version hasn’t held the game back | VGC
“I don’t think the cross-generation development was limiting in any way”…
ResetEraVetVIP
Member
No they have a 60fps mode.