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Writing-GAF: Writing, Publishing, Selling |OT|

C

Conkersbadfurday

Member
So I wrote a query letter about a month ago that got thumbs up from a variety of people, one who actually worked in an agency.

But as it turns out, I also need a cover letter if I want to send the manuscript to places that accept unsolicited manuscripts.

This saddens me greatly. Fuck but these things are hard to write. Just damn. Doesn't help that the internet can't seem to agree on what to put in them.

http://www.caroclarke.com/iamyoureditor.html

Seems to be the best I've seen.

Any tips before I dive into this?
 
Ghost_Messiah

Ghost_Messiah

Member
Waiting for this friend to respond is agonising. She literally has the best work I've ever produced. I spent years on it. And her response is going to be a review of that work and the potential intention to re-energise my writing career and land me an agent. I have the Hotmail tab open next to GAF because when an email comes through I get notified. Every time I see the indicator change I think it's her. I just wish she'd respond so we can get this over with. I'm happy she's helping me but the wait is just painful.

I'll let you guys know what she says when I hear from her. Hopefully it'll be good news.
 
C

Conkersbadfurday

Member
timetokill said:
Damn, you can't submit to feminist stuff if you're male? Wasn't aware feminist was women-only? I could see making that mistake.
Click to expand...
Yeah, the problem with half the advice from that girl is she comes off as a bitter, cynical asshole.

So I don't actually know what to follow and what to ignore.
 
3

360pages

Member
Conkersbadfurday said:
So I wrote a query letter about a month ago that got thumbs up from a variety of people, one who actually worked in an agency.

But as it turns out, I also need a cover letter if I want to send the manuscript to places that accept unsolicited manuscripts.

This saddens me greatly. Fuck but these things are hard to write. Just damn. Doesn't help that the internet can't seem to agree on what to put in them.

http://www.caroclarke.com/iamyoureditor.html

Seems to be the best I've seen.

Any tips before I dive into this?
Click to expand...

That isn't really all that helpful honestly. Because it really comes down to where you are submitting your novel too what kind of story it is and how serious it is. I'm not even sure what I'm supposed to learn from that...
 
J

Jintor

Member
I found my old fanfiction I wrote in 2006. I re-read it.

I was pleasantly surprised to find myself mildly amused. Still had it. Hell, might've gone backwards in writing ability.
 
C

Conkersbadfurday

Member
360pages said:
That isn't really all that helpful honestly. Because it really comes down to where you are submitting your novel too what kind of story it is and how serious it is. I'm not even sure what I'm supposed to learn from that...
Click to expand...
Which is part of my problem. There's all sorts of "advice" but some of it contradicts other places and most of it's really specific.
 
D

Delio

Member
Jintor said:
I found my old fanfiction I wrote in 2006. I re-read it.

I was pleasantly surprised to find myself mildly amused. Still had it. Hell, might've gone backwards in writing ability.
Click to expand...

I found mine and it is a mess. Flushed it to the wilds.
 
D

Delio

Member
Funny enough I got a lot of compliments on the story and even won some award for best scary story. No idea why.
 
J

Jintor

Member
I have a handwritten story from 2001 (age 11 or so?) somewhere in my room back home. It's about space pie rats. I think this was just after I had discovered Douglas Adams.
 
Ghost_Messiah

Ghost_Messiah

Member
So it has been three days since I sent my best work to that female science fiction author who promised to read it, generate feedback and potentially forward it on to her agent. I sent the work to her about 4pm Sunday and obviously now we're mid-afternoon Wednesday. So do you guys think I should just keep waiting and give her some time? Or maybe send her a message asking for an update? I don't want to rush her since I think that might affect the quality of her feedback if she does it quick just to appease me.

What do you guys think? Be patient and keep waiting or ask for an update?

Fake edit: Also she noted in her first response that she was quite busy at the moment and she might "take a while" but she would definitely "get back to me". So there's that too. She kind of already said the feedback might take a few days. Kind of makes me think I'm just being impatient and it might be wiser to leave her to it for the time being.
 
H

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
Wait, like, a month, before pestering her. I get that this is really important to you and this could be a turning point in your life but to her, she's doing a favor for a friend of a friend. She probably has professional commitments to take care of, and few people actually enjoy taking their work home. She'll get around to it when she's ready.
 
M

Mike M

Nick N
Ghost_Messiah said:
So it has been three days since I sent my best work to that female science fiction author who promised to read it, generate feedback and potentially forward it on to her agent. I sent the work to her about 4pm Sunday and obviously now we're mid-afternoon Wednesday. So do you guys think I should just keep waiting and give her some time? Or maybe send her a message asking for an update? I don't want to rush her since I think that might affect the quality of her feedback if she does it quick just to appease me.

What do you guys think? Be patient and keep waiting or ask for an update?

Fake edit: Also she noted in her first response that she was quite busy at the moment and she might "take a while" but she would definitely "get back to me". So there's that too. She kind of already said the feedback might take a few days. Kind of makes me think I'm just being impatient and it might be wiser to leave her to it for the time being.
Click to expand...

Dude, you gave it to her at the end of the weekend, and she told you up front that it will take a while. I understand that you're feeling exposed and vulnerable until you open Schrodinger's box and find out what she thought, but it is way too soon to be getting antsy about this. Your gut is correct, wait this out. Don't pester her.

I feel like Writing GAF and Dating GAF are crossing streams here, heh.

How much material did you give her, anyway? A full book? Multiple books? Short stories? I know when I read with an eye for critique, it takes me far longer than normal, I wouldn't have an answer for a full book in three days even if I didn't have other time constraints.
 
Ghost_Messiah

Ghost_Messiah

Member
Haly said:
Wait, like, a month, before pestering her. I get that this is really important to you and this could be a turning point in your life but to her, she's doing a favor for a friend of a friend. She probably has professional commitments to take care of, and few people actually enjoy taking their work home. She'll get around to it when she's ready.
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Mike M said:
Dude, you gave it to her at the end of the weekend, and she told you up front that it will take a while. I understand that you're feeling exposed and vulnerable until you open Schrodinger's box and find out what she thought, but it is way too soon to be getting antsy about this. Your gut is correct, wait this out. Don't pester her.

I feel like Writing GAF and Dating GAF are crossing streams here, heh.

How much material did you give her, anyway? A full book? Multiple books? Short stories? I know when I read with an eye for critique, it takes me far longer than normal, I wouldn't have an answer for a full book in three days even if I didn't have other time constraints.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the rapid and intelligent responses guys. You both are right. My gut instinct was to wait this out so now I've read your advice that aligns with that I think I'm going to stay silent and patiently wait for that email from her. To answer your question the work I sent her wasn't much at all; a ten page screenplay sample and five page story synopsis encompassing two different science fiction projects. Ultimately the best work I've ever produced that I have iterated over and over again for the past five years.

Obviously my portfolio consists of a far greater wealth of material than that (the ten page screenplay sample is from a complete one hundred page plus screenplay) but I chose those samples with a view to giving her something that she could read quickly and easily that also demonstrates the strength of my ideas and writing capability. And yeah you both are right. I'm kind of on the edge of my seat here because it's literally the work I'm most proud of across my entire life and this process could result in a powerful and life changing turning point. I care more about those specific samples than anything else I've ever written.

Definitely going to follow your advice though. I shall wait this out patiently. I'll definitely update you guys on here when I get her response.
 
F

Figments

Member
Holy crap. I've been looking for a thread like this for some time now. Could never seem to find one.

Anyway, I'm subbed. I'll post writing bits later when I don't have classes.
 
J

jtb

Banned
Anyone here applying to MFAs? Just got my first rejection. tis the season.

(is there like a grad school application thread somewhere?)
 
A

AngmarsKing701

Member
Ghost_Messiah said:
Thanks for the rapid and intelligent responses guys. You both are right. My gut instinct was to wait this out so now I've read your advice that aligns with that I think I'm going to stay silent and patiently wait for that email from her. To answer your question the work I sent her wasn't much at all; a ten page screenplay sample and five page story synopsis encompassing two different science fiction projects. Ultimately the best work I've ever produced that I have iterated over and over again for the past five years.

Obviously my portfolio consists of a far greater wealth of material than that (the ten page screenplay sample is from a complete one hundred page plus screenplay) but I chose those samples with a view to giving her something that she could read quickly and easily that also demonstrates the strength of my ideas and writing capability. And yeah you both are right. I'm kind of on the edge of my seat here because it's literally the work I'm most proud of across my entire life and this process could result in a powerful and life changing turning point. I care more about those specific samples than anything else I've ever written.

Definitely going to follow your advice though. I shall wait this out patiently. I'll definitely update you guys on here when I get her response.
Click to expand...

Just reaffirming what's already been said. In fact, if I were you I'd take those lovely pieces that you are so proud of and package them into some queries and get them out. You should be doing something constructive rather than hitting F5 on your email.

And not to be a downer, but please consider the possibility that you might not hear what you want to hear, which is yet another reason to get your stuff out to others. Not everyone likes everyone else's stuff. Just be prepared either way. Your posts come across as though this is your last chance, and it's really not. It might be your best chance to date, but whatever happens, it's not your last one.

We're all pulling for you!

cosmicblizzard said:
Hey Angmars, can you add my second book to the OP?

And yeah Ghost, it's been 3 days. You gotta be patient with stuff like that.
Click to expand...

Done.
 
C

Conkersbadfurday

Member
Jintor said:
I have a handwritten story from 2001 (age 11 or so?) somewhere in my room back home. It's about space pie rats. I think this was just after I had discovered Douglas Adams.
Click to expand...
Same. I think I was ten or so when I wrote "Farmyard Wars" which is about pigs and chickens fighting each other with swords made out of bacon.

I also have a comic book written around the same time. Drawing was never something I got good at, it seems :p
 
F

FlowersisBritish

fleurs n'est pas britannique
Bleh, i don't want to edit. I have like five stories I should start to edit and get ready to send out. How does everyone else edit? I personally like to do a quick edit so it's kinda readable, than print off a copy and do some hard edits in pen. After that, do a couple more edits on my computer. When i'm focused, I'll devote a couple close run throughs back to back, but I don't usually have the patience to do that :/
 
M

Mike M

Nick N
FlowersisBritish said:
Bleh, i don't want to edit. I have like five stories I should start to edit and get ready to send out. How does everyone else edit? I personally like to do a quick edit so it's kinda readable, than print off a copy and do some hard edits in pen. After that, do a couple more edits on my computer. When i'm focused, I'll devote a couple close run throughs back to back, but I don't usually have the patience to do that :/
Click to expand...

I print out hard copies and revise daily.

Helps that I mostly write just really short stuff.
 
F

FlowersisBritish

fleurs n'est pas britannique
Mike M said:
I print out hard copies and revise daily.

Helps that I mostly write just really short stuff.
Click to expand...

I have to print my stuff out at the public library, so stuff like that isn't really viable. I am thinking about getting a printer, but I don't really know how much and often I'll have to buy ink.
 
C

Conkersbadfurday

Member
FlowersisBritish said:
Bleh, i don't want to edit. I have like five stories I should start to edit and get ready to send out. How does everyone else edit? I personally like to do a quick edit so it's kinda readable, than print off a copy and do some hard edits in pen. After that, do a couple more edits on my computer. When i'm focused, I'll devote a couple close run throughs back to back, but I don't usually have the patience to do that :/
Click to expand...
For my big ol book, I was doing a chapter a day and calling that good. Took anywhere between a half hour to two hours depending on the state of the chapter and how long it was. Usually read it twice or sometimes three times.

Seemed to work alright. I'd throw on some tunes in the background (instrumental only), and that made it more enjoyable too
 
M

Mike M

Nick N
Is it weird that my NaNo book getting universal acclaim from everyone I've got reading it is bothering me? Nobody's brought up anything that can't be fixed with a few lines to address the issue.

The last thing I want is to get a big head about how great my book is only to get slapped down hard when it comes time to shop it around.
 
R

Rankun

Neo Member
Mike M said:
Is it weird that my NaNo book getting universal acclaim from everyone I've got reading it is bothering me? Nobody's brought up anything that can't be fixed with a few lines to address the issue.

The last thing I want is to get a big head about how great my book is only to get slapped down hard when it comes time to shop it around.
Click to expand...

I don't know ... I always find my own books bad in a way. Or not as good as they could be. Whenever I make up a story in my mind it's close to perfect, but the written words on the page never even come close. And when I give it to people to read, and they say that they like it, I used to point out things I find bad about.

"I like that you like it, but don't you think that ..."

And so on. Everyone is their own harshest critic, so I wouldn't say it's a big problem. If you want to sell your book, what everyone else thinks is ultimately more important that what you think yourself.
 
M

Mike M

Nick N
Rankun said:
I don't know ... I always find my own books bad in a way. Or not as good as they could be. Whenever I make up a story in my mind it's close to perfect, but the written words on the page never even come close. And when I give it to people to read, and they say that they like it, I used to point out things I find bad about.

"I like that you like it, but don't you think that ..."

And so on. Everyone is their own harshest critic, so I wouldn't say it's a big problem. If you want to sell your book, what everyone else thinks is ultimately more important that what you think yourself.
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I don't disagree, I'm more lamenting the fact that they may not be sophisticated enough in their critiquing ability to give me the feedback I need to whip it into the shape I want it to be in before I face the publishing world.
 
T

timetokill

Banned
Mike M said:
Is it weird that my NaNo book getting universal acclaim from everyone I've got reading it is bothering me? Nobody's brought up anything that can't be fixed with a few lines to address the issue.

The last thing I want is to get a big head about how great my book is only to get slapped down hard when it comes time to shop it around.
Click to expand...

If it makes you feel any better, I think it's total fucking garbage and you should print 50 copies just so you can burn them


I haven't read it but it's probably great
 
F

FlowersisBritish

fleurs n'est pas britannique
Yeah, I find most friend reviews to be kind but not really insightful. If you can't find the harsh criticism you need than there's not really much you can do. Also, you should be careful of your own criticisms because you're probably being too harsh, as a writer is likely to be against his own work. Still, sending it out without the harsh criticisms isn't the worst idea. If someone likes it enough, but doesn't want to publish it, they will usually send you back some really great feedback. Professional feedback on stuff is amazing, but can also be pretty varied, so be careful of that too.
 
A

Ashes

Member
Mike M said:
Is it weird that my NaNo book getting universal acclaim from everyone I've got reading it is bothering me? Nobody's brought up anything that can't be fixed with a few lines to address the issue.

The last thing I want is to get a big head about how great my book is only to get slapped down hard when it comes time to shop it around.
Click to expand...

Universal Acclaim is good. Let's just focus on that for a while.
 
A

Ashes

Member
Reading up on how few people in London read short stories is depressing. Literacy rates aren't as good as they ought to be either.. :/
One of these days, I'll just print out a bunch of copies of Joyce's The Dead or something else out of copyright, and just leave them at train stations for people to read. Better that than some of the drivel people pay to read daily in the red tops.
 
F

FlowersisBritish

fleurs n'est pas britannique
Ashes said:
Reading up on how few people in London read short stories is depressing. Literacy rates aren't as good as they ought to be either.. :/
One of these days, I'll just print out a bunch of copies of Joyce's The Dead or something else out of copyright, and just leave them at train stations for people to read. Better that than some of the drivel people pay to read daily in the red tops.
Click to expand...

The idea of printing off short stories and just leaving them around sounds really cool. You should do it. I think a lot of people would like to read more often, but most never get around to it. Just shoving it in their faces might be the little push a lot of people need.
 
M

Mike M

Nick N
Apologies for the Livejournal-esque (is Livejournal still a thing?) wall of text, but I think I’m in something of a bind and may need advice. This is the closest to appropriate thread I can think of.

I’ve been a co-organizer for a writers’ group on Meetup for going a little over two years now, and recently the founder of the group has decided it would be a great idea to post prompts prior to each meeting for people to work on. I’m not against the notion of prompts in general (most everything I write is for Creative Writing Challenge GAF, after all), but the way this is being handled is infuriatingly suboptimal.
  • The Meetup group has nearly 160 people signed up under it, and lately we’ve been having up to a dozen people show up with new people practically every meeting. I’m aware that this is in fact a pretty awful way to handle a writing group, but I’ll get to that in a bit.
  • The prompts are optional, but nowhere in her posts is this mentioned. This leads to mass confusion every meeting as to whether or not anyone can even read anything they brought that was not the prompt, and we have to spend several minutes parsing out who brought something that was based on the prompt, who brought something that was not, and explaining that it was, in fact, optional.
  • Because I fucking hate repetition, I started commenting on every scheduled Meetup that the prompt was optional. This morning I got a passive aggressive text asking (telling, really) me to stop commenting on the prompts. I pointed out that I was tired of going over the same stuff every meeting, and she said she’d go over the format at the meeting. Never mind that this is useless to anyone wondering before the meeting if they have to do the prompt or not.
  • I have no interest in reading/listening to a bunch of writing exercises that all start with the same phrase or sentence (see my previous aversion to repetition). Writing exercises are well and good, but I’m personally not interested in seeing how many different directions a story can go after the same opening week in and week out.
  • Getting through the prompt material takes forever. Last meeting, we were fully halfway through our scheduled meeting before we got to the “real” stuff, which didn’t leave us any time to do any meaningful critique beyond “I liked it.” Receiving and giving critique is the sole reason I go to these meetings, so having the prompts impact it so immensely is a deep wound for me.

I’ve tried to delicately bring up the issue that by not clarifying the fact that the prompts were optional or imposing any sort of word count or write time restrictions on them we were actively harming our already meager ability to function, but it didn’t amount to anything. I think I just may or less be done with this group, which is a deeply painful thing for me to say because I have had lots of fun with it over the years, despite the fact that none of us had any idea WTF we were doing. I have made repeated attempts to do more with the group, but there is a distinct commitment and enthusiasm gap between myself and most everyone else in the group. This sudden lurch to emphasize banal writing exercises at the expense of other material has done nothing but widen that gap. I need people at the next level to challenge me instead of trying to lift everyone else around me up, and I can’t get that if we’re going to dick around with entry level “show, don’t tell” lessons and shit.

The problem is I don’t have anywhere else to go. This is literally the only game in town, and writing has become an important enough part of my life that I’d rather deal with this bullshit than have nothing at all. I have had some really good friends come out of this group, but it feels like a dick move to try and poach them (they are among our most regular members) to try and make a new group for myself. And as good of friends as they are and as much as I like reading what they write, I’d still be in the “lift everyone to my level” situation.

Anyone here in the north Puget Sound region wanting to form a new group? Because I’m actively looking.
 
T

timetokill

Banned
If I was in the Puget Sound area, I'd definitely be down for it, Mike. Alas, Portland is a bit too far.

That sounds like a frustrating situation and it doesn't seem like there are any easy answers. It does seem as though the group has exhausted its usefulness for you, though, and I'd be worried it would make you unhappy with writing if you stuck around it too long.

Is there an aspect of the writing group that you find most valuable? Maybe you can focus on that one thing and form a split-off group dedicated to it, which would avoid the "dick move" aspect of it. Or if the group is clearly "beginner's level" you could make a more exclusive, invite-only advanced group or something. You could even go to both.
 
M

Mike M

Nick N
timetokill said:
If I was in the Puget Sound area, I'd definitely be down for it, Mike. Alas, Portland is a bit too far.

That sounds like a frustrating situation and it doesn't seem like there are any easy answers. It does seem as though the group has exhausted its usefulness for you, though, and I'd be worried it would make you unhappy with writing if you stuck around it too long.

Is there an aspect of the writing group that you find most valuable? Maybe you can focus on that one thing and form a split-off group dedicated to it, which would avoid the "dick move" aspect of it. Or if the group is clearly "beginner's level" you could make a more exclusive, invite-only advanced group or something. You could even go to both.
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We actually did do a spin-off meeting for doing books (Because 2K words every other week just flat out does not work for that). I did a beta test of the format with some of those friends I was speaking of earlier, and it's been working out great.

I announced that we'd be doing this to the rest of the group, and two people immediately jumped on board, then proceeded to whine about everything: The venue, the format, the word count, etc. Then the founder freaked out because she was under the impression I was going to be at every meeting, even when I didn't have a book to share, because she has this weird thing where no meetings without one of us there can be allowed to occur.

Thankfully, the whiners backed out and I can just wash my hands of it entirely. But no one can say I'm not making an effort.
 
A

AngmarsKing701

Member
Mike M said:
We actually did do a spin-off meeting for doing books (Because 2K words every other week just flat out does not work for that). I did a beta test of the format with some of those friends I was speaking of earlier, and it's been working out great.

I announced that we'd be doing this to the rest of the group, and two people immediately jumped on board, then proceeded to whine about everything: The venue, the format, the word count, etc. Then the founder freaked out because she was under the impression I was going to be at every meeting, even when I didn't have a book to share, because she has this weird thing where no meetings without one of us there can be allowed to occur.

Thankfully, the whiners backed out and I can just wash my hands of it entirely. But no one can say I'm not making an effort.
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Oof. Finding the right people, who are as dedicated to working at this as you are, is very tough. I got pretty lucky with the first book, but the one I'm working on now, not so much. Had to disband a group I started because it just wasn't clicking and I spent more time futzing with it than writing.
 
M

Mike M

Nick N
There's a group out in Bothell. Might drop in to see what they're about and see if it outweighs the convenience factor of my local group.
 
C

Conkersbadfurday

Member
I'm almost a week into the next project, which will probably wind up being a novella in length, and I'm already stressing out over it and probably cocking the whole thing up.

Last project I wrote, I didn't use an outline. I guess I normally don't, or if I do, it's very vague. I like letting things happen and following along.

This one though, I've had the idea for so long that almost all of it's been planned out in advance, so now it's execution. I feel like I'm forcing it too much, or constraining it. Also feel like the voice I have going fades in and out a bit. Not used to keeping a voice for a very long period of time.

I'm having fun writing it though, which I guess is what counts. I'm afraid at the end of the day, that it'll be horseshit. I guess that's what editing is for, but man, you can only edit so much!

Also wonder if there isn't enough dialogue in here, though it's not really about anyone other than the main character.

Basically, I'm stressing over everything and only like half done with the thing.
 
N

NipplesAndToes23

Member
I wish I had the luxury of knowing most of my story in my head again. I thought about the story to my first book so much that my writer's block were very minimal. My newest novel I'm struggling with, but i think a lot of that is because I've taken such a long break from writing. The two years that I spent getting my bachelor took up a lot of my time and there were more distractions too. I'm struggling to get back in here. I'm currently stuck on how to advance my plot.
 
E

Elfforkusu

Member
Mike M said:
The problem is I don’t have anywhere else to go. This is literally the only game in town, and writing has become an important enough part of my life that I’d rather deal with this bullshit than have nothing at all. I have had some really good friends come out of this group, but it feels like a dick move to try and poach them (they are among our most regular members) to try and make a new group for myself. And as good of friends as they are and as much as I like reading what they write, I’d still be in the “lift everyone to my level” situation.

Anyone here in the north Puget Sound region wanting to form a new group? Because I’m actively looking.
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Well.. if they're your friends, odds are they'd probably prefer to be in a writing group with you in it.

I'd say bail out, and be honest(ish) about it. As for whether you form your own splinter writing group and introduce all sorts of intrigue in the process, I'd play that by ear. However, it should be stated that I'm the kind of guy who thinks there's some value in burning a bridge from time to time.

Ashes said:
Reading up on how few people in London read short stories is depressing. Literacy rates aren't as good as they ought to be either.. :/
One of these days, I'll just print out a bunch of copies of Joyce's The Dead or something else out of copyright, and just leave them at train stations for people to read. Better that than some of the drivel people pay to read daily in the red tops.
Click to expand...
This is probably an unpopular opinion, but IMO:

Short stories are easier to write than they are to read.
 
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