No worries! Apologies I didn't mean to write so much but just kinda went all over the place.
It's all good, this is a wide subject we could sit down and talk about for a long time in person, so it's no surprise we're both writing a lot
If it happens during the show then it's during the show. Whether Undertaker does it during the match, before or after it's clearly not real or anywhere close to presenting a show that is part of a legitimate contest. When someone lies down for 15 seconds during a match then that's fake. It doesn't look like a legit fight. It just seems like you're saying the suspension of belief works for you for The Rock because you like him but not for The Young Bucks because you don't like them. And again, personal preferences are all fine and good but there's not some objective line about this stuff.
Everyone knows he's not a real undead person, so I think there is an inherent disconnect between the gimmick and the match if the match is presented as a legitimate contest.
When it comes to the example of Rock, I think it's a whole package thing that people accept(ed) it because everything leads up to it. The spinebuster > elbow combo is something that follows a big slam, usually at the finish, so even though everyone goes in knowing it's fake it's an easier pill to swallow than two tag teams full of energy doing a scripted routine. It's like red barrels meaning explosions. Yes, it's not real, but it's accepted. But if you see the wirework for the stunt, it's going to ruin it. The Bucks don't even pretend when they're doing routines, so I can't even begin to accept the work. It's not just Bucks, just that the cage match is an example. There's plenty of things I dislike that many more people do.
I get what you're saying, because on paper it's all a load of horseshit. But for better or worse, wrestling had a hell of a lot of people that watched it in the Attitude Era and that's gone. There's got to be a reason for that, even when you remove UFC as a factor.
As Jim's come up a few times, the reason I got hooked on his podcast is that when I came across a few clips he was explaining the behind the scenes stuff that without being told you wouldn't necessarily think about. The psychology of it for example, and why when that's gone it's not as engaging. Classic heel/babyface stuff that does get you engaged because you're rooting for the good guy and the bad guy is sneaky cheating fuck. The basics drive the whole thing, and that makes sense. It's an answer to the question "Why was that entertaining and why is so much of it not drawing me in any more?" Why and how a hot tag works, for example. People hate Jim because he criticises, but I think they miss the point. All he really wants is for people to get the basics and walk before they can run, and to respect the business they're in. Plus the stories. I love the stories.
You can look back at newspaper articles from the turn of the 20th century and people were talking about how wrestling is fake. The wrestling industry loves the idea that they were working "the marks" for decades and only recently did the public figure it out. But people have always known and it's always been talked about. If anything people in the wrestling industry who believe otherwise are the marks. People knowing wrestling is fake hasn't stopped it from being a successful entertainment medium. People know that movies are fake and still enjoy those.
I love seeing those articles, I've seen a few on Reddit. It shows how different things were when wrestling was a big enough source of entertainment that people's thoughts on it were newspaper worthy. But even with it being fake, it didn't stop how invested people got. I think the genuine danger the talent was in because of that level of investment shows that there was a different level of fandom that doesn't exist today, for better or worse.
AEW has recently done a bunch of million-dollar gates and just today an exec from Warner Bros. Discovery talked about how AEW does huge numbers for them and they're looking to get them to produce more content for them. Numbers wise AEW is doing great.
Yeah it's definitely an interesting one, because you see dropping numbers pretty often (a recent one I saw was Battle of the Belts, consistent drops from one event to the next) but then you have execs saying things like that. Of course if there's been a deal made they're not going to come out and say "They're not the best we've ever had but they'll do", but at the same time they have to be drawing enough to get a deal in the first place so even with drops they're still doing well enough.
Your view seems to be based around the idea that The Young Bucks aren't effective. But they are, for reasons I've outlined a few times now. Plenty of people are invested in The Young Bucks and what they do works for that audience They've sold a shitload of merch, are over with crowds and have significantly improved business for multiple promotions. If in 1914 Farmer Burns thought wrestlers of the day were co-operating to do routines then what would he have thought of Austin, The Rock or basically anyone from the 90s? So why is your line for when something becomes co-operating to do a routine any more valid than his? It's not definitive, it's entirely subjective. And like I said, I think for a lot of people it's defined by the stuff they grew up with.
I touched on it above, but to reiterate I think the level of co-operation plays a part. I saw a crowd view clip the other day of someone standing on someone's shoulders in the ring, with a group of ~5 stood outside who eventually get jumped on from inside the ring. It's so blatantly obvious that it's a stunt, and there's no psychology there or reason to care even the tiniest amount. Pro wrestling is more than just the moves, and something like that is just stunts. Farmer Burns comes from the era of actual legitimate wrestling where he earned his title, so of course he was going to have opinions on anything but that. I wouldn't expect anything less.
There's been a gap in the market for an alternative to WWE for decades, ever since WCW went away. AEW was able to happen because of the talent available at the time, and that includes The Young Bucks. All Out was essentially a proof of concept that led to AEW. No All Out no AEW, it's simple enough. If Tony Khan wasn't able to point to that then he doesn't get the TV deal he got and at that point it doesn't matter how rich his family is, AEW would not have an outlet to exist. It's been nearly 4 years now. If it was going to be a flash-in-the-pan thing then it would have faded away by now. As I said above they've just done a bunch of million dollar gates and their TV partner is looking to produce more shows with them because they've been so happy with the numbers AEW has produced.
If I were to guess based on looking at the card of All In, they may have been popular but there's bigger names than them to point to as draws. Bubba Ray and Cody Rhodes jump out straight away.
The BTE youtube stuff isn't for me either. But clearly it has helped them draw right? And your point was that it hasn't. But the Bucks have been a major act in the wrestling industry for quite a few years now. Since they and Cornette are often brought up in connection with each other it's worth noting that when Cornette stopped having a creative influence in ROH and they shifted to having a major focus on the Bucks the promotion did its biggest business ever. If an act is working I don't see any reason to just try and come up with reasons that it's not working. They're over, they make a difference and they have for years.
That's interesting. I don't know anything about any of that so I can't comment either way, but it's definitely interesting.
Orange Cassidy has been a top ratings draw and top merch seller for them. He's massively over with the crowd. Again it just seems like you're trying to say that an act that does work doesn't. Should Orange Cassidy be their world champion and the focus of the promotion? No, I wouldn't say so. But clearly there can be a role for him where he can be an asset. The fact that AEW has paid for multiple music rights for him shows they clearly see value in him that has warranted further investment.
I'll never understand the draw of OC. All I see is a one trick pony with nothing else to offer except hurting wrestlers when he wrestles. I hear what you're saying, though.
A wrestling show should have a good variety to it. Some comedy can be fine. Yeh your main event stuff should have a serious tone but you can mix things up. Wrestling that takes itself incredibly seriously is out there. If people want to watch shoot style stuff with no comedy then they can. I don't see any evidence that a significant number of people want no comedy wrestling. Seems like most people want a variety. The idea that people aren't watching wrestling because it doesn't take itself seriously enough is kind of the opposite from reality in my experience at least where people who aren't into wrestling find it ridiculous precisely because it does take itself too seriously.
If people get bored of the gimmick then he can get a new gimmick. That's pretty standard for wrestling. I've seen him work other gimmicks before. His work as Fire Ant played a major role in getting him signed to AEW.
I completely agree! Variety is absolutely necessary, and why people like Eddy Guerrero and The Rock were so popular - they could do a range of things. Using extremes is just to make the point, and a 100% serious show would be boring as fuck. But also sometimes when I talk about taking it seriously I mean respecting the business part, which circles back to presenting it as a contest and not a choreographed routine.
