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UK PoliGAF |OT3| - Strong and Stable Government? No. Coalition Of Chaos!

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Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Bonen no Max'd said:
Is it normal for former leaders to not be part of the shadow government?
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Yes. Depending on how recently they were leader it'd pose a risk of usurpation of authority/back-seat driving, and often they're not on best terms anyway. Imagine the impact it would have had on Obama's perception if Bill Clinton had served in his Cabinet.
 
B

Bonen no Max'd

Banned
Crab said:
Yes. Depending on how recently they were leader it'd pose a risk of usurpation of authority/back-seat driving, and often they're not on best terms anyway. Imagine the impact it would have had on Obama's perception if Bill Clinton had served in his Cabinet.
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Appointing Kerry as Secretary of State was actually what made me think it was a bit odd that Miliband was only a backbencher, but that makes sense, thanks!
 
M

Maledict

Member
Bonen no Max'd said:
Appointing Kerry as Secretary of State was actually what made me think it was a bit odd that Miliband was only a backbencher, but that makes sense, thanks!
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Got to remember in a parliamentary system ex leaders can become leaders again (look at Australia over the last decade). Unlike a cabinet secretary in America’s system, who can only become president if a lot of people die suddenly...
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Bonen no Max'd said:
Appointing Kerry as Secretary of State was actually what made me think it was a bit odd that Miliband was only a backbencher, but that makes sense, thanks!
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Kerry wasn't made secretary of state until Obama had stamped his authority on the party, though. The analogy is David Cameron making former party leader William Hague foreign secretary, which he did.

We might see Miliband return in time.
 
T

tomtom94

Member
Crab said:
Kerry wasn't made secretary of state until Obama had stamped his authority on the party, though. The analogy is David Cameron making former party leader William Hague foreign secretary, which he did.

We might see Miliband return in time.
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Kind of appropriate that Cameron's reign began and ended with him trying to keep his nutters in line.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
We should start a new OT just so we can use the ORK OR RYON title.
 
K

Kotetsu534

Member
In a way, I find it a bit heartwarming that such a complete farce of a leader's speech is still possible. You'd think with all the risk experts, security personnel, PR consultants, speechwriters and contingency planners around everything would be programmed to the nth degree, but no, it can still go all Fawlty Towers. A comedy sketch would struggle to get away with the leader completely losing their voice, being handed a P45 'from' your leadership rival by an intruder, and the slogan over her shoulder falling off live on air. The metaphor writes itself.
 
C

CCS

Banned
You guys have to listen to Eddie Mair destroying Amber Rudd on PM, best 10 minutes of political interviewing you will ever hear. Starts about 21 minutes in:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b096gjrb

Get through the bit early on where he keeps asking about the remit of the EU referendum, it's softening her up for what comes after.
 
J

JonathanEx

Member
Let's see how the papers take this

DLUnETVWAAIcnNC.jpg:large
DLUjxO1WkAUIAQQ.jpg
DLUkGquXkAIrORW.jpg:large
DLUp6dYW0AEVumZ.jpg:large
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Well at least one is staying on side

DLUmVWvUMAAXJbJ.jpg:large
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(Still
 
G

Goodlife

Member
So pissed off this morning

BBC headline
Theresa May: Tories rally round PM after speech woes
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41506740

That's fine, but surprising, but fine

Read a bit more

"However, it is thought dozens of MPs are discussing the possibility of trying to persuade Mrs May to stand aside."

Honest to god, if the situation was about Corbyn and "dozens of MPs" were talking about him leaving, do we really think the BBC headline would be a "some MPs like Corbyn" one.

BBC are taking the piss recently
 
S

slider

Member
Goodlife said:
So pissed off this morning

BBC headline
Theresa May: Tories rally round PM after speech woes
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41506740

That's fine, but surprising, but fine

Read a bit more

"However, it is thought dozens of MPs are discussing the possibility of trying to persuade Mrs May to stand aside."I

Honest to god, if the situation was about Corbyn and "dozens of MPs" were talking about him leaving, do we really think the BBC headline would be a "some MPs like Corbyn" one.

BBC are taking the piss recently
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Kuenssberg's coverage last night was very, umm, almost apologetic and understanding of May's total shit show.

Edit: Or maybe I was tired and cranky and misjudged.
 
C

Commander Jameson

Member
Goodlife said:
So pissed off this morning

BBC headline
Theresa May: Tories rally round PM after speech woes
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41506740

That's fine, but surprising, but fine

Read a bit more

"However, it is thought dozens of MPs are discussing the possibility of trying to persuade Mrs May to stand aside."

Honest to god, if the situation was about Corbyn and "dozens of MPs" were talking about him leaving, do we really think the BBC headline would be a "some MPs like Corbyn" one.

BBC are taking the piss recently
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That is such a weak sentence to have in the report.

"it is thought" - thought by whom? The BBC? The sources?
"discussing the possibility of trying to persuade" - how many words to say so little?
 
M

Maledict

Member
Goodlife said:
So pissed off this morning

BBC headline
Theresa May: Tories rally round PM after speech woes
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41506740

That's fine, but surprising, but fine

Read a bit more

"However, it is thought dozens of MPs are discussing the possibility of trying to persuade Mrs May to stand aside."

Honest to god, if the situation was about Corbyn and "dozens of MPs" were talking about him leaving, do we really think the BBC headline would be a "some MPs like Corbyn" one.

BBC are taking the piss recently
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I think you’re being over sensitive tbh.

The bbc article is this way for two reasons. First is they don’t have hard sources - ‘it is thought’. That means they don’t have names or numbers. Someone on the right could make the argument the article demonstrates the BBC’s left wing bias because they are running a story without any real detail behind it.

Secondly, another key difference between this and corbyns prior woes was that with Corbyn the vast majority of the party MPs were openly in revolt. They held a vote of no confidence in him! They were briefing to the press constantly, openly. It was an entirely different situation, and even looking at the tories in the worse light it’s clear a majority of MPs want her to stay (if only to save their own skin).

It’s not like the bbc wa skimping on reporting Boris’s behaviour and woes over the last two weeks.
 
G

Goodlife

Member
Maledict said:
I think you’re being over sensitive tbh.

The bbc article is this way for two reasons. First is they don’t have hard sources - ‘it is thought’. That means they don’t have names or numbers. Someone on the right could make the argument the article demonstrates the BBC’s left wing bias because they are running a story without any real detail behind it.

Secondly, another key difference between this and corbyns prior woes was that with Corbyn the vast majority of the party MPs were openly in revolt. They held a vote of no confidence in him! They were briefing to the press constantly, openly. It was an entirely different situation, and even looking at the tories in the worse light it’s clear a majority of MPs want her to stay (if only to save their own skin).

It’s not like the bbc wa skimping on reporting Boris’s behaviour and woes over the last two weeks.
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Hmmm, yeah, maybe
 
P

pulsemyne

Member
So seems like there was a good chance that Ted Heath was a nonce then. No wonder Saville thought he was invulnerable. Talk about friends in high places.
 
C

CyclopsRock

Member
slider said:
Kuenssberg's coverage last night was very, umm, almost apologetic and understanding of May's total shit show.

Edit: Or maybe I was tired and cranky and misjudged.
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You think so? The first thing she asked Amber Rudd was along the lines of "Wasn't that a train wreck, and I don't just mean her throat?"
 
S

slider

Member
CyclopsRock said:
You think so? The first thing she asked Amber Rudd was along the lines of "Wasn't that a train wreck, and I don't just mean her throat?"
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Yes, that was my first reaction.

Although you've included my edit which was an acknowledgement that I wasn't giving the report 100% attention. If I could have had the chat with you in the immediate period after I'd seen the report I'd probably be able to add more.
 
H

Huw_Dawson

Member
Pyroclastic said:
https://twitter.com/D_Raval/status/915618207343480833

one of her speechwriters is clearly a west wing fanboy, the line copied is extremely blatant. not the worst thing in the world but adds to the funniness of today.
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Anecdotally, a love of the West Wing is something I've noticed as crossing political boundaries amongst political people I know.

I recall Crab mentioned stats for party member ages yesterday or the day before - this tweet has the latest data from the "ESRC Party Members Project" who apparently track this stuff.#

https://twitter.com/ProfTimBale/status/915490364802437120

Nothing too surprising here except that the massive influx of members Labour got doesn't seem to have been so overwhelmingly young people as to tip the balance. Labour has near parity on its gender ratio, though, which is a pretty big achievement.
 
U

Uzzy

Member
Telegraph: Tory rebels prepared to confront Theresa May within three days and tell her to quit

Tory rebels have said that there is a "50/50" chance they will confront Theresa May in the next three days and demand that she steps down before the end of the year.

Ed Vaizey, a former minister, today became the first Tory MP to break ranks and said that "quite a few people are firmly of the view that she should resign" after her disastrous conference speech.

The Telegraph understands that the rebels, who have the support of around 30 Tory MPs, believe there is a "small window of opportunity" to force the Prime Minister out.

They say that if they can attract sufficient support they will confront the Prime Minister directly and tell her to go.

"It has to be all or nothing," one of the Tory MPs said. "We can't have a situation where a few go public with their criticism and the rest fade away. There is a small window of opportunity here, more people are coming forward."
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Seems like we get reports along these lines every day now. Will this be the one though? The conference was a clear chance to reboot May's premiership and that obviously hasn't happened. She may have pity now, but that won't last long at all.
 
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Huw_Dawson

Member
It's not as if she planned to get ambushed by a prankster/end up in a coughing fit/have a dodgy set at her speech, so I can't imagine anyone that wasn't out baying for her blood is going to be now.

This extremely long Tory leadership contest has to end soon though, and May isn't winning it.
 
M

Maledict

Member
It’s fascinting because normally the tories are *so* ruthless about leadership contests. But Brexit is such a fuck up that they are behaving like labour normally does, with an utterly poisonous, drip feed of hostile briefings that just stops the government doing anything.
 
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slider

Member
Watching the coverage just now with Rudd rallying the Cabinet. I'm not sure what's going to happen. I think they must realise May's in an unenviable position and that they have to be united against a presumably resurgent Labour.
 
C

CCS

Banned
slider said:
Watching the coverage just now with Rudd rallying the Cabinet. I'm not sure what's going to happen. I think they must realise May's in an unenviable position and that they have to be united against a presumably resurgent Labour.
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Part of the problem is that Rudd couldn't rally people to go and eat at a buffet. She's useless, and if she didn't have the rich pensioner population of Rye tacked on to Hastings in her constituency she'd have been kicked out long ago.
 
C

CyclopsRock

Member
Huw_Dawson said:
It's not as if she planned to get ambushed by a prankster/end up in a coughing fit/have a dodgy set at her speech, so I can't imagine anyone that wasn't out baying for her blood is going to be now.

This extremely long Tory leadership contest has to end soon though, and May isn't winning it.
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I think the problem is more that this was supposed to be her springboard into a refresh - May 2.0, trying to leave the election behind and focus on going forwards after 6 months of not getting sacked. The fact it was such a shambles just totally has her falling at the starting line, even if none of it was her fault. There's only so many times you can re-launch yourself.
 
P

Principate

Saint Titanfall
Uzzy said:
Telegraph: Tory rebels prepared to confront Theresa May within three days and tell her to quit



Seems like we get reports along these lines every day now. Will this be the one though? The conference was a clear chance to reboot May's premiership and that obviously hasn't happened. She may have pity now, but that won't last long at all.
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I don't think this will really work, for as bad as the conference was the issues weren't really May's fault. May serves a very convenient negativity soak that they can dump after Brexit is over or at least the negotiations are over. Having a new PM will one start a leadership contest now which is an awful look and two ensure whoever takes her place will be thoroughly stained and blamed for the brexit mess. You'll move from one interim pm to another.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Politics feels stuck in some horrific superposition at the moment where Brexit is always happening but will never happen and Theresa May is at the same time about to resign and secure in her position. I know how Schrodinger's cat felt!
 
C

Coriolanus

Banned
Crab said:
Politics feels stuck in some horrific superposition at the moment where Brexit is always happening but will never happen and Theresa May is at the same time about to resign and secure in her position. I know how Schrodinger's cat felt!
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i mean, it was a cat in a box. Cats love boxes, thus...
Feel that brexit became quite secondary to the current tory drama, tbh, but then, i don't watch local news.
Huw_Dawson said:
This extremely long Tory leadership contest has to end soon though, and May isn't winning it.
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even as delusional as she is, she probably already came to terms with the fact that she only has to hold this thing together with duct tape and spit until someone not named BoJo is capable of taking over.

CCS said:
Part of the problem is that Rudd couldn't rally people to go and eat at a buffet. She's useless, and if she didn't have the rich pensioner population of Rye tacked on to Hastings in her constituency she'd have been kicked out long ago.
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Wasnt she the one that only managed to retain her position after asking for, like, ALL the recounts? Most likely not even that will save her next time.
 
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tomtom94

Member
I think O'Brien hit the nail on the head yesterday: May wants to go, the party wants her to go, but they're all absolutely petrified of a Corbyn premiership and therefore she is staying on out of a sense of moral duty.
 
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Mr. Sam

Member
I don't know that May does want to go. Minimal as the chances she'll be remembered fondly are, I think she'd rather be the Prime Minister that made a decent fudge of Brexit than the worst Prime Minister in modern history.

I think the Tory civil war has definitely kicked off in earnest though.

This'll certainly be an interesting chapter in the history books:

The government knew once we activated Article 50 that the clock would begin ticking. Rather than using the chance to create a unified approach and a clear plan, and build up the necessary manpower and organisation that would be needed, we activated it at the earliest opportunity, mindful that Germany and France would both have elections that would put us on the back burner. Not to be left out, we called an election of our own, bungled it and promptly lost our majority. We kept Theresa May for a few months, then saw Boris Johnson make a joke about dead Libyans and installing him as leader seemed like such a good idea that we decided to waste a few more precious months. Why did Brexit turn out so poorly? It's unclear.
 
M

Mr. Sam

Member
PJV3 said:
Nah, it will be a mix of good and bad, if he really fucks it up then he gets kicked out.
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I mean... is this not true of every Prime Minister ever?

My fear with a Labour government is they a) look at the bank balance and have to row back on a lot of what they've been talking about or b) don't.

Maybe I'll owe an apology to the Lexit people, who really have been playing twelfth dimensional chess this entire time, when our exit from the EU leads us into a socialist utopia.
 
G

Goodlife

Member
tomtom94 said:
I think O'Brien hit the nail on the head yesterday: May wants to go, the party wants her to go, but they're all absolutely petrified of a Corbyn premiership and therefore she is staying on out of a sense of moral duty.
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Why they so scared?
If they fear it's as bad as they say it will be it'll kill Labour for a long time and kill the left for even longer.
 
PJV3

PJV3

Member
Mr. Sam said:
I mean... is this not true of every Prime Minister ever?

My fear with a Labour government is they a) look at the bank balance and have to row back on a lot of what they've been talking about or b) don't.

Maybe I'll owe an apology to the Lexit people, who really have been playing twelfth dimensional chess this entire time, when our exit from the EU leads us into a socialist utopia.
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They think we will end up like Venezuela, Westminster isn't going to let him go all Chavez, a good bit of his own party will vote against him.
 
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TrutaS

Member
If May leaves, do you know what legally has to happen? Do we have another election, or is she replaced by another conservative leader chosen from within the party? If it's the latter I'm scared a complete brexit hard-liner may take charge and make things worse.
 
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Maledict

Member
TrutaS said:
If May leaves, do you know what legally has to happen? Do we have another election, or is she replaced by another conservative leader chosen from within the party? If it's the latter I'm scared a complete brexit hard-liner may take charge and make things worse.
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There’s absolutely no legal requirement for another election. We didn’t vote for May to be PM, we voted for our local MPs. Anyone who can command a majority of MPS in the house can be leader (doesn’t even have to be an mp technically).
 
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