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[demented waffle]

Holy shit, this thread still going on. I would figure my drunken shit posting last night would've locked it. Not that was my intentions.

I can obviously see the angst of shitty pc ports tho.

Hopefully, they get better. If not, I just wasted 1200 or so USD on an upgrade.

 

[rodrigolfp]

crashes are not uncommon for almost every single game and some games just break after X amount of time (Ghostwire locked itself to 3FPS after playing for 10 hours, tried everything, completely unplayable).

Maybe in your PC.

From what I see online this is the worst time to be a PC gamer with ports being so horrible.

Day 1 before fixes, maybe.

 

[Bragr]

but we are still comparing on a similar playing field here, a couple guys and a couple million. the standards of the labels just changed over the years- what a small team could make back in 1997 is considered AAA, in 2017 it's considered indie.
it's still the same amount of people with the same amount of money making similar games. i'm pointing out the fact that if half life were made today with the same exact team and amount of money it would have been considered Indie or AA.
it's not fair to call Half Life an AAA game and then call Subnautica, a game with a similar budget and team, Indie, and it's also not realistic to expect actual gigantic modern AAA teams like IO interactive and Rockstar to develop exclusively for PC because said AAA titles cost so much cash that making them for ONE platform is a money sink.

Yes, it would be a money sink. That's one of the reasons why exclusive PC games fell out as they did, which is one of the reasons why I feel PC games were on a different level before.

If Half-Life was made today, it would be a mediocre ugly shooter. But it was made at a time when we had seen nothing like it. So it was an experience for the ages.

If it was made today it might have been like an AA title in terms of scope and budget, but our perceptions are not the same and the industry is not the same. World of Warcraft might not be that interesting today, but on launch, it was incredible.

You could say similar things for every era, Super Mario 64 would have been a 70 on Metacritic today, but on launch, it was a game changer.

What matters is the experience you get with a game, and back then, the big exclusive titles had unique meaningful dramatic experiences because the studios pushed PC games into new areas with new tech. Doing that today in the indie space is extremely difficult and too expensive. We have seen more, played more, and are harder to please, and creating an industry-leading experience would likely mean big budgets and elite talent, something which goes to console in our time.

 

[dcx4610]

I also think it’s the golden age. I definitely remember the pains of the 90s and early 2000s. You really had to know what you were doing and had to configure your games to your specific hardware. Crashes were also common.

Nowadays, it’s literally buy the game, run it and enjoy. It’s like a console. Games even configure themselves automatically to your specs.

PC games have a bad rep for crashing and having to deal with drivers. That was true in the past but I can honestly say I haven’t had a single crash from any game and even old ones in hundreds of hours in the decade. Unless the game is new and broken, everything is incredibly stable.

Almost everything gets a PC release now and now that Sony is on board, a Nintendo console is all you really need as a supplement experience. I haven’t touched my Xbox or PS5 since the launch. I just don’t have a reason.

 

[BabyfaceRe]

Maybe in your PC.

Day 1 before fixes, maybe.

If I hit recommended specs this should not be a problem. FYI I only play games I have at least recommended specs for.

Games should work day one no? And no, it's a not a maybe. Wo Long came out a week ago and got panned for Pc performance.

I bought Ghostwire 6-12 months after release. Wild Hearts still broken as fuck.

Clearly a PC WhiteKnight. "your PC is the problem not the games" "Games shouldn't have to work day one" lmfao literally the perfect response of a mindless defender.

 

[Spyxos]

This dude probably started gaming on PC 2 years ago...

War Craft 3, Quake 3 Arena, UT99/2K4, Star Craft:BW, Ragnarok Online, Tribes...

The list goes on, we had A LOT of different communities and a lot of choices of games made to be fun and competitive.

Now we have the most dumb boring copy pasted slow ass low skill crap games dominating 98% of the market... LoL, Warzone, forttrash...

But yeah we made great progress in the hardware side with new apis like vulkan and dx12 also gained compatibility with DxVK, proton and newest versions of Wine... We have powefulm graphics cards and processors, but from a game design standpoint we are in the dark times.

Did you even read?

 

[analog_future]

I've been putting some real thought into selling my Series X and PS5 and tossing in another $1000 towards a high-end PC.

With Series X games coming day-and-date with PC and PS5 games now eventually coming to PC, it's really tempting.


My biggest hurdle is that I've built such a large library of digital games on my consoles already.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

Put the floppy in the Amiga or Disc, and the game played, no blowing into carts, no 400 configurations. No GPU prices making you bankrupt, no steam monopoly lowering the standards.

 

[Chiggs]

I've been putting some real thought into selling my Series X and PS5 and tossing in another $1000 towards a high-end PC.

With Series X games coming day-and-date with PC and PS5 games now eventually coming to PC, it's really tempting.


My biggest hurdle is that I've built such a large library of digital games on my consoles already.

It's never a good idea to sell consoles, IMO. You end up buying them back.

 

[analog_future]

It's never a good idea to sell consoles, IMO. You end up buying them back.

Having two consoles and a high end gaming PC seems pointless though.

I currently have built out my library on Xbox and only use the PS5 for exclusives. Maybe I'll only sell the PS5 if I go the PC route. I dunno yet.

 

[DonJimbo]

Price the GPUs cheaper and will return to pc gaming in a heart beat

 

[YeulEmeralda]

I get your point OP, if you look at it from a strictly "game variety" perspective then yes, PC Gaming is great right now. Lots of Japanese games, and now Xbox and Sony porting their exclusives to PC too, better gamepad support as you say its all great. But the last couple of years have been pretty bad from performance/optimization perspective and specially hardware prices as other have already explained, here in my country is still really hard (if not impossible) to build a PC with the same specs as a PS5 for same price.

The Unreal and Quake days were the peak of PC gaming.

Guess what? You can still play those games.


On that note I felt for the first time that I was a real PC gamer while emulating Ace combat 5 in 4k.

 

[SmokedMeat]

If I hit recommended specs this should not be a problem. FYI I only play games I have at least recommended specs for.

Games should work day one no? And no, it's a not a maybe. Wo Long came out a week ago and got panned for Pc performance.

I bought Ghostwire 6-12 months after release. Wild Hearts still broken as fuck.

Clearly a PC WhiteKnight. "your PC is the problem not the games" "Games shouldn't have to work day one" lmfao literally the perfect response of a mindless defender.

To be fair you’re making it out as if games crashing is a normal thing, with almost every game. It’s either major hyperbole or an issue with your PC.

 

[rodrigolfp]

Games should work day one no? And no, it's a not a maybe. Wo Long came out a week ago and got panned for Pc performance.

Yes they should. Who said the opposite? But you paint like is the end of the world without fixes. Maybe in your computer almost every game cashes. And Wo Long zero problems here too.

 

[Gameplay Gods Bless]

Well that hasn't really changed, apart from Capcom

PC gets more Japanese games than PS4/5 because it gets Japanese PS5 games AND Japanese Switch games that don't come to PS5. Japanese PC ports are also better than ever.

 

[rofif]

Yeah pc gaming is fucking good, I cannot even make it to the first house in re4 remake demo.
Maxed settings 4k fsr2.0 balanced and it craps out before I enter the house every time.
It looks about the same with fsr 2.0 enabled as ps5 but native 4k looks fantastic. Shame it doesn't run lol... on a 3080fe...

 

[Spyxos]

Yeah pc gaming is fucking good, I cannot even make it to the first house in re4 remake demo.
Maxed settings 4k fsr2.0 balanced and it craps out before I enter the house every time.
It looks about the same with fsr 2.0 enabled as ps5 but native 4k looks fantastic. Shame it doesn't run lol... on a 3080fe...

It is a demo and not a finished game and the demo has problems on all platforms. Sometimes bigger sometimes smaller.

 

[rodrigolfp]

Yeah pc gaming is fucking good, I cannot even make it to the first house in re4 remake demo.
Maxed settings 4k fsr2.0 balanced and it craps out before I enter the house every time.
It looks about the same with fsr 2.0 enabled as ps5 but native 4k looks fantastic. Shame it doesn't run lol... on a 3080fe...

Fix your PC. We already know that you have all kinds of problem all the time.

 

[rofif]

Fix your PC. We already know that you have all kinds of problem all the time.

I have a perfectly fine 3700x/3080fe pc. newest drivers and everything. I am into pc gaming since the 90s. Don't school me how to use my pc. You know this really gets on my nerve... cmon man.
Nothing is running in the background either.
Your excusing of pc bullshit is over the limit man. Think about it. THINK what you are saying. HOW IS IT MY PROBLEM.
I did another test. FSR2.0 performance and rt normal. It still crashes. It's not my fault. Not even remotely.
You keep talking how pc is the easiest now than it ever was but when something is crashing for me, then suddenly I am stupid and my pc is broken?!
No. my pc is not broken. It's perfectly fine. Good temps, no oc, perfect 3dmark scores alongside similar rigs.
The only thing that is outdated is uefi thas's maybe a year old. But I got tired of monthly uefi updates by then. x570 is/was a mess.

It is a demo and not a finished game and the demo has problems on all platforms. Sometimes bigger sometimes smaller.

I wouldn't hope for a fix. re2 remake does the same thing since it got RT patch. They just have ship vram optimization.
Village never did that. Maxed out 4k and everything.

 

[rodrigolfp]

HOW IS IT MY PROBLEM.

If it's happening in your PC while me and several other users on the RE4 thread don't have, it's your PC/problem.

 

[SmokedMeat]

Yeah pc gaming is fucking good, I cannot even make it to the first house in re4 remake demo.
Maxed settings 4k fsr2.0 balanced and it craps out before I enter the house every time.
It looks about the same with fsr 2.0 enabled as ps5 but native 4k looks fantastic. Shame it doesn't run lol... on a 3080fe...

I’ll try it when I get home. I’ve heard from other PC players that it runs beautifully.

 

[rofif]

If it's happening in your PC while me and several other users on the RE4 thread don't have, it's your PC/problem.

It is not my problem. There is nothing about my gpu that would be any different than any other 3080.
There is no issue to be had. What imaginary thing could be plaguing my pc lol. It's no 1998. I've got the new drivers an thats it
Check out steam forums. it's a common issue.
Could be a lot of things. Running full screen, vrr, vsync forced in nvcp, rtss running... could be anything at this point. It's probably just vram and capcom inability to run the game within vram limitations

What settings, res and gpu you play with?

 

[rodrigolfp]

It is not my problem. There is nothing about my gpu that would be any different than any other 3080.
Check out steam forums. it's a common issue.

What settings, res and gpu you play with?

4k, everything max except retarded effects like DoF, motion blur OFF. 5800X + RTX 3080 12GB + 32GB RAM.

 

[rofif]

4k, everything max except retarded effects like DoF, motion blur OFF. 5800X + RTX 3080 12GB + 32GB RAM.

You got 2 more gb of vram. Your setup is not comparable. And you got 5800x. I only have 3700x. And you school me "but your pc is broken, it runs for me". Way to be a pc dick...
I doubt 32gb of vram, motion blur or dof matter at all in that case. And it's idiotic on your part to disable these. Very good visuals. Its not gta 3 blur you know....

 

[rodrigolfp]

rtss running...

Close this shit. It's very common demos/betas crashing with this on.

 

[rodrigolfp]

And it's idiotic on your part to disable these. Very good visuals.

Everything becoming a blurry mess when I turn is shit. Or any effect that makes something blurry.

 

[Gameplay Gods Bless]

As a PC gamer for over 2 decades, I have to strongly disagree.
In fact, I would say this is one of the worst times ever to be a PC gamer.
GPU prices are a fracking ripp-off.
Every major publisher has it's own store and launcher. And they all want to start with Windows and most have a helper service.
Every other game has stutters, especially games using UE4.
Windows has become a vessel for bloatware and spyware.
PC games have become as expensive as console games. There was a time when PC games cost 15-20€ less than console games.

There are still many advantages to PC gaming, but it's becoming increasingly dificult to offset all the crap we have to deal with.

Prices have escalated for the high end (4080 region) but the rest of the market is fine. You can get a PS5 level GPU for $200~ new with an RX6600, RX6600XT or even an A750 if it the drivers don't hold Intel back in the games you play. You can also buy a used 3060ti for less than $299 if you're an Nvidia fanboy which is significantly more powerful than a PS5.

A console destroyer PC goes can be had for reasonable prices: a Ryzen 5700, an rx6600, 16GB of ddr4 ram and an AM4 MB go for around $850 or less. Throw in an affordable case and PSU and you're good to go at $950-1050. This PC would serve you for a long time and it wouldn't cost you anywhere near $3000.

 

[rofif]

Close this shit. It's very common demos/betas crashing with this on.

just tried it. 1440p max settings (still just to test).
without afterburner/rtss running. Even enabled window mode instead of full-screen. Still crashed before even entering the house.

BUT I DID FOUND something interesting. Exactly the same result as RE2remake with RT.
Disable rt = no crashes at all.
smooth 80fps maxed out at 1440p, no rt. No crashes.
around 50fps maxed out at 4k, no rt. no crashes

This is without fsr, maxed out... and the RT setting is not even taxing. it still crashes on normal. The moment I disable rt, it's fine. so strange as I finished full Rt games like metro exodus enhanced and so on.

I will satisfy your will - are my 3080 tensore cores broken ?! or is RT feature using much more vram than they indicate

 

[Black_Stride]

Price the GPUs cheaper and will return to pc gaming in a heart beat

How much cheaper do you want GPUs to be?

Intel A750 - 200 to 250
AMD 6600/6650XT - 200 to 250
Intel A770 - 300
AMD 6700/6750XT - 300 to 350
Nvidia RTX 3060ti - 300 - 350
Nvidia RTX 3070 - 400 - 450
AMD 6800 - 400 - 500
AMD 6800XT - 500 - 600

Founders Editions got their clearance sales:

CPUs like the 5600X/12400 are going for 150 dollars all the time.
16GB of RAM is like 50 bucks
B550m motherboards are 100 to 120 dollars.

Mate you can put together a very very capable machine for alittle more than the price of a PS5.

5600X - 150
B550m - 120
16G RAM - 50
66x0XT - 225
PSU - 50

Total ~600 for a very capable machine.

Spend alittle more and you could probably not need another computer till the PS6 and still play everything that comes out.

 

[8BiTw0LF]

PC's are for work, like stalking your ex's new boyfriend on social media or watching nature films.

 

[Spyxos]

How much cheaper do you want GPUs to be?

Intel A750 - 200 to 250
AMD 6600/6650XT - 200 to 250
Intel A770 - 300
AMD 6700/6750XT - 300 to 350
Nvidia RTX 3060ti - 300 - 350
Nvidia RTX 3070 - 400 - 450
AMD 6800 - 400 - 500
AMD 6800XT - 500 - 600

Founders Editions got their clearance sales:

CPUs like the 5600X/12400 are going for 150 dollars all the time.
16GB of RAM is like 50 bucks
B550m motherboards are 100 to 120 dollars.

Mate you can put together a very very capable machine for alittle more than the price of a PS5.

5600X - 150
B550m - 120
16G RAM - 50
66x0XT - 225
PSU - 50

Total ~600 for a very capable machine.

Spend alittle more and you could probably not need another computer till the PS6 and still play everything that

Is this Us? In Germany GPU prices are not even comparable.

 

[Gameplay Gods Bless]

this is the one thing i really miss. we'll never get games like crysis again unless Nvidia becomes a game developer

Nvidia is a game developer they made a game studio called lightspeed that made Quake RTX and just recently Portal RTX.

 

[Gameplay Gods Bless]

I understand your point, OP

But the golden age was back when PC had exclusives, therefore an identity of its own.

I have a very capable laptop, but its a console port machine where I can play the same console games, but with better fidelity. And emulators, of course.

Exclusives are what really make a platform especial

And DX 12 fucked PC ports pretty hard. Every game has stutter or other performance problems due to this shit.

That was also the golden age of consoles. Basically from the 80s till the mid 2000s.

 

[Gameplay Gods Bless]

I agree with the boomers here saying PC used to have way better games. I still play HOMM3 and AOE2 often. The good thing is these old ass games are now better than ever. The bad thing is nobody with a budget is making them anymore because theyd rather chase GaaS money on PC. It’s still way better than console gaming tho.

Except Microsoft did fund AoE4 and just greenlit an Age of Mythology sequel. But you are otherwise correct.

 

[Gameplay Gods Bless]

because console ports weren't coming to PC as frequently. like yeah you guys got doom but missed out on Mario World, Street Fighter 2, Super Metroid, ALTTP, Sonic, Streets of Rage, Castlevania, Contra, etc
not to mention that they're not console ports.... they come to everything day one

THIS IS IT. I came to the realization that it was DX12's fault once I tried Linux. Elden Ring which was a stuttery mess on Windows was now nothing more than a decent port thanks to running DXVK.

Vulkan has the same issues but dxvk can fix some dev lazyness.

 

[Graciaus]

just tried it. 1440p max settings (still just to test).
without afterburner/rtss running. Even enabled window mode instead of full-screen. Still crashed before even entering the house.

BUT I DID FOUND something interesting. Exactly the same result as RE2remake with RT.
Disable rt = no crashes at all.
smooth 80fps maxed out at 1440p, no rt. No crashes.
around 50fps maxed out at 4k, no rt. no crashes

This is without fsr, maxed out... and the RT setting is not even taxing. it still crashes on normal. The moment I disable rt, it's fine. so strange as I finished full Rt games like metro exodus enhanced and so on.

I will satisfy your will - are my 3080 tensore cores broken ?! or is RT feature using much more vram than they indicate

Crashed in the same spot with RT on but played fine with it off. Demo is probably just broken.

 

[rofif]

Crashed in the same spot with RT on but played fine with it off. Demo is probably just broken.

heads up. You can keep RT ON even on high but you need other sacrifices.
Mainly Textures. I turned to high 3gb and shadows from max to high.
Yes, it is broken but so was re2 remake after RT patch. Their RT stuff does some crazy vram stuff and it's not showing in their strange calculator

 

[Romulus]

Hell no. Pc used to exclusives that consoles couldn't touch or get ports of for YEARS. Those days are over.

 

[FIREKNIGHT2029]

I’ve been gaming on PC for 30 years and I disagree. The 90s were way better. We had tons of AAA exclusives back then that actually utilized our hardware to the fullest, games were optimized and prices for PC components were a lot better.

I love PC gaming now but it’s nowhere near as good as it was in the 90s. It’s more accessible now if most of what you play is indie games and low spec requirement competitive shooters but in the AAA exclusive PC space it’s a joke compared to where it was in the 90s. I miss the old PC gaming days for this alone.

 

[Rhazkul]

RTS games, Sim Racers, ARMA, Flight Sims, MOBA, CIV, MMOs.

Extremely niche games - not as nearly as big budgets as the yearly installments of FIFA, CoD etc.

I am talking about ambitious games, exclusively developed with the PC as a platform in mind (PC comes first, everything else maybe later). Something like WoW, STALKER, Half-Life 1+2 (even though HL got ported to console eventually...but see: it got ported TO consoles, not vice verse like today). These days, developers want to maximize profits, so their games run on all platforms.
The fact that crossplay is almost everywhere available too makes me wonder why we even have 3 big platforms still. Just merge it all together finally and make a single platform/console.
And here's how we decide who gets to make the upcoming "merged" console for the people: the company that "won" the previous 3 generations gets the privilege. Everyone else is out and only supplies games and shit.

I'd call it the Sony PlayStationBox 1080 (powered by Windows).

 

[Chiggs]

I’ve been gaming on PC for 30 years and I disagree. The 90s were way better. We had tons of AAA exclusives back then that actually utilized our hardware to the fullest, games were optimized and prices for PC components were a lot better.

I love PC gaming now but it’s nowhere near as good as it was in the 90s. It’s more accessible now if most of what you play is indie games and low spec requirement competitive shooters but in the AAA exclusive PC space it’s a joke compared to where it was in the 90s. I miss the old PC gaming days for this alone.

I largely agree. The late 90s and early 00s were incredible. But now? Beefy PC hardware is disgustingly expensive, x86 continues to halt progress & performance/efficiency breakthroughs, and we're basically at the edge of a precipice...as clearly evident by DISASTROUS global sales over the past 6 quarters.

What's great now is Steam, but Steam is just a storefront/community...and people keep missing that in this thread. Steam does not somehow make up for the fact that modern PC Gaming is almost completely devoid of meaningful AAA exclusives.

If the PC can hang its hat on anything, it's that it made consoles more PC-like...but who needs a gaming PC when you have PC-esque consoles and their mid-gen refreshes? Hell, even Valve has gone the console route!

Mate you can put together a very very capable machine for alittle more than the price of a PS5.

5600X - 150
B550m - 120
16G RAM - 50
66x0XT - 225
PSU - 50

Total ~600 for a very capable machine.

Spend alittle more and you could probably not need another computer till the PS6 and still play everything that comes out.

1. You didn't factor in the cost of an SSD
2. You didn't factor in the cost of Windows
3. You didn't factor in the cost of a case or case fans
4. You're suggesting a 6 core processor in an era of games being developed for 8 core processors?
5. You arguably cheaped out on the PSU
6. And if the person has zero experience putting together the PC and something goes wrong?

I'm also assuming the person has a keyboard, mouse and controller just laying around their house, but if not...

 

[DonJimbo]

How much cheaper do you want GPUs to be?

Intel A750 - 200 to 250
AMD 6600/6650XT - 200 to 250
Intel A770 - 300
AMD 6700/6750XT - 300 to 350
Nvidia RTX 3060ti - 300 - 350
Nvidia RTX 3070 - 400 - 450
AMD 6800 - 400 - 500
AMD 6800XT - 500 - 600

Founders Editions got their clearance sales:

CPUs like the 5600X/12400 are going for 150 dollars all the time.
16GB of RAM is like 50 bucks
B550m motherboards are 100 to 120 dollars.

Mate you can put together a very very capable machine for alittle more than the price of a PS5.

5600X - 150
B550m - 120
16G RAM - 50
66x0XT - 225
PSU - 50

Total ~600 for a very capable machine.

Spend alittle more and you could probably not need another computer till the PS6 and still play everything that comes out.

The prices here in Germany are different than the US
GPUs and CPUs dont get decrease in prices often and still a whole pre configured PC with a top of the notch CPU and GPU costs more than 2000 bucks

 

[pramod]

Are we just talking about PC-exclusive games? Hell naw the peak of that was the 90s and early 00s.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Kinda weird hearing people talking about "no PC exclusives!" or "PC only gehts console ports!", then looking back and noticing the majority of games i've played in recent times have been pc-first or pc-only.

"butr but it hats to ve aaa!!' bitch, the AAA industry is trash anyway. Why the hell would i want to play Borespoken when i could just search for games that fit my taste just right? Its like books. There are no 'must read!' books, and the average book worm isn't looking at the New York Times best seller list, he just searches for something that he might enjoy.

 

[M1987]

I've been putting some real thought into selling my Series X and PS5 and tossing in another $1000 towards a high-end PC.

With Series X games coming day-and-date with PC and PS5 games now eventually coming to PC, it's really tempting.


My biggest hurdle is that I've built such a large library of digital games on my consoles already.

Just sell the Xbox and get a PC.That's what I did,it's like having all 3

 

[thuGG_pl]

I mainly game on PC myself but, there are annoying problems with PC games frankly:
1. Poor PC ports - stuttering, shaders compilation on the fly etc.
2. Poor controller handling - many games will not recognize Xbox game pad if I have other input devices connected (steering wheel etc.). This is particularly infuriating, because usually this means I need to disconnect all my simracing setup in order to use a game pad. Elden Ring was like that, but they fixed it preety fast thankfully.

I had many other problems in various games. Basically 90% of the time I run some new game there is some kind of an issue I need to google how to fix.

 

[Rhazkul]

2. You didn't factor in the cost of Windows

I agree with you but cmon...who the heck pays for Windows?

 

[MikeM]

Just sell the Xbox and get a PC.That's what I did,it's like having all 3

I kept my ps5. No way in hell am I waiting sometimes years, or if ever, for PS games to come to PC.

 

[reinking]

I disagree. A lot of today's PC gaming is either console ports or remakes and sequels to previous generations.

 

[yamaci17]

Kinda weird hearing people talking about "no PC exclusives!" or "PC only gehts console ports!", then looking back and noticing the majority of games i've played in recent times have been pc-first or pc-only.

"butr but it hats to ve aaa!!' bitch, the AAA industry is trash anyway. Why the hell would i want to play Borespoken when i could just search for games that fit my taste just right? Its like books. There are no 'must read!' books, and the average book worm isn't looking at the New York Times best seller list, he just searches for something that he might enjoy.

yeah people who are obsessed with 1st party / 3rd party aaa games think the gaming world is entirely compromised of the games they play. lots of cool aa/indie pc titles exist that do not go to their consoles

heck, even 18+ adult games on steam is a compelling factor for pc gaming lmao. those kind of games will never ever hit ps/xbox stores as they're trying to depict themselves as family friendly