dammitmattt said:
Jumping is just as much of a game mechanic as shooting.
It
can be, but it isn't necessarily the same thing, and it is grossly oversimplifying to say any game with jumping in is a game about jumping in the same way it is to say any game that allows you to move has moving as a core gameplay mechanic.
Mario and Sonic games have jumping as a core mechanic.
Ninja Gaiden and Quake Wars have jumping as an aspect of movement, more specifically as an option in combat.
...but this is waaaaaaaay off topic of NPD sales
dammitmattt said:
Here's the problem. Your Gamertag only contains 14 retail games, of which you've only really spent time with six of them (Viva Pinata, Dead Rising, Crackdown, Oblivion, Condemned, and GRAW).
Looking at someones gamertag to see their experience with a given console is inherently flawed, due to the fact that achievements do not directly correspond to time spent playing (for example I've spent a lot longer playing Perfect Dark 0 than I did playing Condemned or GRAW combined, but the only achievement I have is 'finished game on easy' which is worth one achievement of not many points, and have played a lot of single console co-op GoW and Halo 3, just not on
my 360).
I have actually played a
lot of XBLA games on a console not my own, as well as
many of the games available on platforms other than the 360 (I played many of PopCaps offerings on PC a very long time ago for example).
I can't really 'prove' that however, so feel free to dismiss my opinion as uninformed if you do require absolute proof of someones precise gaming life before listening to their opinions on something - which pretty much dismissed
anyones gaming history prior to owning a 360 and a couple of games on Steam, right?
dammitmattt said:
However, if you're JUST looking for games that don't have shooting, driving, or sports elements, then I can see how it can be limiting, but who thinks like that? Even when looking at the games you played, 5 out of the 6 have shooting elements, so you must be into it somewhat. I just don't understand what you are looking for, because the same types of games that were popular last gen are well-represented on the 360. The only thing that's missing are the new Wii-like experiences.
I think you're confusing diversity with popularity here, tbh.
My statement that the 360s output is currently heavy with shooters, racers and sports games doesn't imply that those are unpopular genres - far from it, they wouldn't sell by the metric fuckload if they were - it's that there are a few token efforts made in other gameplay types, and that the overall system library is incredibly biased towards certain gametypes and experiences.
Guitar Hero 2 & 3 and Rockband are effectively variations on the same game - where are the Gitaroo Man / DDR / Oendan type games?
If you're a Bemani fan, the genre spread is lower than you would expect after 2 years as market leader isn't it?
If you're a strategy / tactics gamer, what do you have at retail? LOTR: Battle for Middle Earth?
at a stretch Overlord? Civ Revolutions is coming which will help, but do you think it well sell very well? If the 360 userbase had broad gaming tastes don't you think after 2 years as market leader there would have been some other efforts made before now?
How about platformers? Or beat 'em ups? Party games? Puzzlers? Survival Horrors?
These are all very lacking in terms of output at retail, again given
just how long the 360 has been the best selling console for. By contrast, when the PS2, the PS1, the SNES and the NES had all been undisputed WW market leader for 2 years look at what their software libraries offered in terms of diversity at this point in the life cycle.
Hell, look at what the DC was offering after it's first year headstart positioning.
The 360 has found it's niche, and is exploiting the hell out of it to the self-proclaimed 'hardcore' and been very profitable doing so in terms of third party sales, but it is becoming clearer with every NPD that by choosing to focus so very tightly on one type of demographic with depth in a few genres, it is losing the more casual marketplace who are looking for a broader overall gaming experience.
In summary, the 360s exceedingly good coverage of the 'popular' gametypes is coming at the detriment of WW marketshare.
Whether this is the fault of Microsofts targetted demographics and business plan, or the fault of most Western publishers 'me too!' style of iterating popular titles through their own development, I don't know. But for the time spent as market leader the 360s software diversity is still too narrow to support mass market sales, and mass market sales support this theory. Releasing the occasional nod towards the mass market in things like Fusion Frenzy or Scene It has been too little, too late.
dammitmattt said:
And you still haven't backed up the ridiculous assertion that WiiWare and PSN have more diverse offerings than XBLA.
I look at the consoles DD libraries as exclusives only, not with retro ports or games available on the PC (let's not forget that PopCap are one of the biggest publishers in the world exclusively through PC and mobile sales).
Both the PSN and the Wii have superior 'retro' libraries (albeit without upscaled 720p ports and wordlwide leaderboards, things that 'casual' gamers really couldn't give a shit about) and where I see a huge chunk of Robotron remakes on XBLA together with the odd underlooked gem (Outpost Koloki X, Band of Bugs, Pacman Vs) I see on the PSN a range of extremely polished titles like Warhawk or Tekken: DR, to the quirkiness of things like LocoRoco or Echochrome or Pain, to 'standard' XBLA style offerings like Pixeljunk monsters, SS:HD or High Velocty Bowling.
WiiWare is still extremely new, but My Life As a King or Lostwinds are the kinds of games that could
very easily receive a full retail release with a bit more time spent on development to flesh them out a bit more; WiiWare is at the moment
exactly the kind of service that I was hoping for XBLA to be in the early days of the 360 and MSs claims of supporting indie development through things like the XNA and allowing user created content to be sold through XBLA (remember that?) whereas now they have apparently gone back on all of those early promises and are just selling slots to large publishers at the expense of seeing odd and unique titles in favour of HD remakes.
The 360 currently has the volume on XBLA, no question at all, but there is a
lot of dross on there, especially of shitty romports and twinstick shooters.
Zerachiel said:
Both Mario and Metroid, especially the 2D games, have jumping as a core gameplay mechanic, but the xperience of playing the two is so different that it would be asinine to suggest that Nintendo platforms have no diversity. Same deal with Mass Effect and Halo.
The 2D Mario and Metroids do share a 'jump' mechanic as core gameplay, although Metroid expands it with 'exploration' mechanics. You are correct that Mass Effect is radically different to Halo, and I was being facetious to group them together as 'shooters' because Mass Effect isn't a shooter in the slightest.
But I am not a 'casual' audience who look at the boxart and the screenshots and see another bald space marine shooter.
I remember someone on Gaf telling an anecdote of someone picking up Super Paper Mario thinking it was a platformer from the box, name and screenshots on the back and absolutely hating it because it wasn't
at all what they wanted.
It's the same deal, I think.
And the thing with Nintendo in particular is that they very often explore new gameplay mechanics with the 'safety net' of sticking one of their recognisable game icons on the cover to hide that that is what they are doing.
So far they've done that with M&S at the olympics and with Links Crossbow training on the Wii, and with Yoshis Touch 'n' go and Kirbys canvas curse on the DS, and now that Wii ____ is a recognisable 'franchise' in it's own right, I expect them to experiment with 'core' gamer types by sticking known 'gamer' icons into new 'core' gametypes and Wii ____ (whatever) onto new casual gametypes to further differentiate between their two tier consumer base.
Shaheed79 said:
To us that may be "diversity" but to the casual gamer they're all just games where you "shoot people with guns" along with gears and about 50% of 360's library. We see differences but they don't. I mean this discussion is really about why the casuals don't see the 360 as a viable platform with not much diversity and is geared toward the hardcore and I can completely see why they view it that way.
In comparison the PS2 was never seen as an FPS machine or even a "shooter box". In fact those aren't the kinds of games the PS2 was known for. Fact is the PS2 had SO MANY types of games and genres that no one genre greatly stood over the others so as to completely condition and classify it's fanbase to simply being "shooting and racing fans". Just because 360 has a few good RPG's doesn't buck this trend and neither will Banjo or Ninja Gaiden when first and third person shooters out number and dominate the 360's current and future line-up by such a wide margin.
Quote for agreement.
Scrubking said:
I wonder if someone can help me out.
I'm trying to figure out the list of 3rd party exclusive Wii games that aren't spin-offs, ports, remakes, original IPs or published by Nintendo.
I'm not sure if you can count Excitetruck as a continutation of the Excitebike franchise, or as a spin off.
Likewise I don't know if you can qualify Tony Hawks downhill Jam as a continutation or as a spinoff.
careful said:
This problem is not exclusive to the 360. People have this idea that the PS3 library is that much more diverse than the 360's, but the ratio of shooters is just as high.
I agree, I think both HD consoles targetting at the moment is too narrow and both platforms are lacking diversity.
I think the PS3 has been trying to ape the 360, which has led to a lot of current 360 owners not seeing anything there that they don't already have with the 360, and a lot of their old userbase not seeing anything worth 'upgrading' for. Which I think is reflected in sales.
EDIT:
wow, that's A LONG FUCKING POST <_<
