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[CrunchinJelly]

Know what would be really great now?

If MS used this success and momentum, and came out with some new big core games. Wouldn't that be wonderful?

Yup, seems to be working wonders for Sony.

 

[AdventureRacing]

Yup, seems to be working wonders for Sony.

He didn't say they should abandon the casual market completely. It shouldn't be an either or situation. I think MS should be trying to get into a situation where they have enough exclusive SW to target both.

I also think the type of games referred to as 'core' games on GAF also have a lot of casual appeal. COD for instance is a casual title that appeals to the core. Thats the sort of thing MS should be looking at (though obviously you don't have to match the ridiculous COD franchise).

Edit: MS really need to get some more kinect titles out there. Right now there is very little on the release schedule and that could really hurt kinects momentum going forward.

 

[Brashnir]

He didn't say they should abandon the casual market completely. It shouldn't be an either or situation. I think MS should be trying to get into a situation where they have enough exclusive SW to target both.

I also think the type of games referred to as 'core' games on GAF also have a lot of casual appeal. COD for instance is a casual title that appeals to the core. Thats the sort of thing MS should be looking at (though obviously you don't have to match the ridiculous COD franchise).

Edit: MS really need to get some more kinect titles out there. Right now there is very little on the release schedule and that could really hurt kinects momentum going forward.

To the bolded - What? Seriously? COD is a casual title now? Come on, man.

I'd say it's far more accurate to call COD a core title with mainstream crossover appeal. This is a way I'd describe almost all of the core Mega-hit games, like Halo, GTA, Mario platformers, Mario Kart, etc. I'd also use the label to describe most sports and racing games as well, though racing seems to be losing its mainstream appeal somewhat in recent years. (Though not so much in Europe, it seems)

 

[Psychotext]

PS3

Year over year number is the same, and it's only in January.

That sounds fine until you realise that the PS3 had some fairly significant stock shortages in January 2010.

 

[_Alkaline_]

To the bolded - What? Seriously? COD is a casual title now? Come on, man.

It's the definition of a mainstream game.

 

[Clear]

Software sales being 25% up YoY is much more important than hardware sales staying flat.
Mainly because that's a chunk of revenue being split multiple-ways, retail, platform holder and third parties all benefit.

 

[lowrider007]

Yup, seems to be working wonders for Sony.

Who cares if it's working for Sony, it's working for the consumers, Sony are catering to the 'core' market and good them I say, I'd rather they be in third place with a great selection of core exclusives tbh, Sony are hardly doomed as so many people seem to be proclaiming in this thread, as long they keep on delivering the games I'm happy.

 

[get2sammyb]

Who cares if it's working for Sony, it's working for the consumers, Sony are catering to the 'core' market and good them I say, I'd rather they be in third place with a great selection of core exclusives tbh, Sony are hardly doomed as so many people seem to be proclaiming in this thread, as long they keep on delivering the games I'm happy.

How dare you forget that a system that sells fewer than another system is totally doomed?

You have to wonder why Pepsi have bothered selling soft-drinks all these years. They're never going to sell more than Coca-Cola.

EDIT: On topic, I agree. I really think some people enjoy playing sales more than games sometimes. It's nonsense to suggest Sony STOP putting out these quality titles we all want to play because it's not putting them first in the console race. I understand the interest in sales in this particular thread, but that's absurd. Would people rather Sony stopped making great games because it's not putting them in first-place? I mean, what exactly do you want?

They've probably lost in North America now. Mistakes were made, blah blah. They can continue to stay relevant by putting out great content that appeals to gamers though. That's what they are doing, and it is working. Despite being a significantly higher price and less mind-share (forget the success of the PS2, that's gone), they're still within touching distance of the other platforms. Is it ideal? No. Are they doomed? Far, far from it.

 

[lowrider007]

You have to wonder why Pepsi have bothered selling soft-drinks all these years. They're never going to sell more than Coca-Cola.

I know, perhaps they should stop pitching Pepsi at the MAX consumers and go causal instead.

 

[TheOddOne]

To the bolded - What? Seriously? COD is a casual title now? Come on, man.

The label casual and core don't make any sense at all. Are we talking about the gameplay machanics or about how much a game sells?

 

[Parl]

The label casual and core don't make any sense at all. Are we talking about the gameplay machanics or about how much a game sells?

I don't think it's either of these. You can have casual gamers - people who play games casually. They can be playing Wii Sports casually or any so-called "core" game casually.

Then you have non-casual gamers who play games often, so again, could have been the Wii Sports gamers who played it really often - obviously not casual at all in these cases, or the many people who play games a lot - these aren't casual gamers.

Even though it seems impossible for something to be a casual game (as that implies it's only sometimes a game, mostly not - maybe games that are very cut-scene driven?), I guess the only reasonable definition would be for games that lend themselves to be played casually.

But this doesn't create this core/casual divide. Mario Kart is a casual game in that people can play it casually (unlike say an RPG), and many I'm sure do. But it has many dedicated players who spent hours at a time on it.

In conclusion, the casual/core/hardcore/non-game set of terms were defined by elitist traditional gamers, to create the illusion that their tastes and gaming habits are superior.

 

[TheOddOne]

In conclusion, the casual/core/hardcore/non-game set of terms were defined by elitist traditional gamers, to create the illusion that their tastes and gaming habits are superior.

This pretty much the only reason I could think up too. Thanks for the intresting writeup.

 

[Rolf NB]

The label casual and core don't make any sense at all. Are we talking about the gameplay machanics or about how much a game sells?

The word casual was not invented in 2005 y'know. Doing something casually means doing it with little prep, little time investment, low dedication, and still getting the results you want. Any game with a low skill ceiling lends itself to casual play.

 

[TheOddOne]

The word casual was not invented in 2005 y'know. Doing something casually means doing it with little prep, little time investment, low dedication, and still getting the results you want. Any game with a low skill ceiling lends itself to casual play.

Thats rediculous, how would you define somebody that plays 100 hours of a simple game?

 

[Parl]

The word casual was not invented in 2005 y'know. Doing something casually means doing it with little prep, little time investment, low dedication, and still getting the results you want. Any game with a low skill ceiling lends itself to casual play.

With the skill ceiling being specifically how easy it is to play instead of how easy it is to do well. So many fighting games, puzzle games, etc, can be played casually even if the same games have a very dedicated, very skilled fanbase. This whole core/casual game thing is pure balderdash.

 

[CadetMahoney]

i.e. MS can publish xbox numbers and sales of games they sell.

I wish they would so we can see the Dead Space 2 split.

 

[Dabanton]

I don't think it's either of these. You can have casual gamers - people who play games casually. They can be playing Wii Sports casually or any so-called "core" game casually.

Then you have non-casual gamers who play games often, so again, could have been the Wii Sports gamers who played it really often - obviously not casual at all in these cases, or the many people who play games a lot - these aren't casual gamers.

Even though it seems impossible for something to be a casual game (as that implies it's only sometimes a game, mostly not - maybe games that are very cut-scene driven?), I guess the only reasonable definition would be for games that lend themselves to be played casually.

But this doesn't create this core/casual divide. Mario Kart is a casual game in that people can play it casually (unlike say an RPG), and many I'm sure do. But it has many dedicated players who spent hours at a time on it.

In conclusion, the casual/core/hardcore/non-game set of terms were defined by elitist traditional gamers, to create the illusion that their tastes and gaming habits are superior.

One of the better explanations i've seen.

 

[lowrider007]

This whole core/casual game thing is pure balderdash.

I strongly disagree, I'll never class all video games the same, ever, and I'm sure I'm not alone, I never want to see a game like Angry Birds winning overall game of the year outside of a 'casual' or 'puzzle' category.

 

[szaromir]

I strongly disagree, I'll never class all video games the same, ever, and I'm sure I'm not alone, I never want to see a game like Angry Birds winning overall game of the year outside of a 'casual' or 'puzzle' category.

Is it any different/worse from script galleries winning GOTY awards over the last few years?

 

[Htown]

Is Tetris casual or core?

 

[AceBandage]

Is Tetris casual or core?

Endless Mode is Core.

 

[Goldmund]

Unlike hardcore, the term casual is still very useful when you remove it from its genesis and formation (arguably PR speak and segregation). It allows you to distinguish between games while ignoring their distinguishing characteristics (appeal is not a characteristic, it's a blank space and I'm waiting for you to fill it, hurry up!). It's almost dialectical. ARMA 2 and Call of Duty can both reasonably be qualified as hardcore, but only the latter as casual. Man, I think it's spiritual, an aura, and I'd learn something about God if I elaborated even more. I better stop. Ignore this!

 

[BowieZ]

Unlike hardcore, the term casual is still very useful when you remove it from its genesis and formation (arguably PR speak and segregation). It allows you to distinguish between games while ignoring their distinguishing characteristics (appeal is not a characteristic, it's a blank space and I'm waiting for you to fill it, hurry up!). It's almost dialectical. ARMA 2 and Call of Duty can both reasonably be qualified as hardcore, but only the latter as casual. Man, I think it's spiritual, an aura, and I'd learn something about God if I elaborated even more. I better stop. Ignore this!

Write an essay in this style on this topic. No joke: a periodical would publish it.

 

[onipex]

PS3
I don't think Sony gonna drop the price this year. Year over year number is the same, and it's only in January. The game line-up is great, there are more big games to come.

360
360 picked up some casuals, let it be. It's not the crowd I want Sony to focus anyway, heck if all the 3 big threes focus on casuals, I might as well quit gaming

Wii
It's Nintendo that has to drop the price, 30% drop is bad and no games coming out in the horizon.

A price drop will not help the Wii sell more software, because less software is being made for it. Developers are not giving people much to buy and Nintendo has continued to fail at releasing software that would push it. Wii is still selling a healthy amount this month though. Considering the rate it started selling at and where it is now I'm not sure a price drop will boost Wii sells that much.

The PS3 may need a price drop later in the year. Software has rarely given it a boost in sales.

The 360 will ride the relaunch wave for the year.

 

[apana]

COD is a "core" game as the industry defines it. It has violence, cinematics, and the people who buy it are young males. COD is the ultimate hardcore game.

 

[Canova]

The PS3 may need a price drop later in the year. Software has rarely given it a boost in sales.

May not give it a boost, but should be enough to maintain it

I think it's better off for them to wait to drop the price next year, when the game line-up is thinner. This year they may get by by bundling PS3 with their 1st party library.

Also US is just half of the picture.

 

[Megadragon15]

May not give it a boost, but should be enough to maintain it

I think it's better off for them to wait to drop the price next year, when the game line-up is thinner. This year they may get by by bundling PS3 with their 1st party library.

Also US is just half of the picture.

This is an NPD thread, so as far as this thread goes, the US/North America is the only picture.

 

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

It's the definition of a mainstream game.

I think _Alkaline_ put it well, games like COD, FIFA, WOW and Madden are mainstream, but they're not casual, not in the currently most widely used meaning of the word. There's a clear distinction between that audience and people who mostly play things like Bejewled, Wii Sports and Kinect Adventures; you just cannot lump them together.

And the division wasn't defined by elitist gamers, it was defined by publishers, analysts and other industry observers to separate different types of video game consumers (so they could more easily target them, observe their habits and so on).

 

[Curufinwe]

Thats rediculous, how would you define somebody that plays 100 hours of a simple game?

Coresual.

 

[CrunchyFrog]

Is it any different/worse from script galleries winning GOTY awards over the last few years?

This. Not that I think it should be won by one whose mechanics were ripped straight out of free flash games, though.

Interesting numbers. New console gen is on its way though within next 3 years at latest.

 

[Parl]

And the division wasn't defined by elitist gamers, it was defined by publishers, analysts and other industry observers to separate different types of video game consumers (so they could more easily target them, observe their habits and so on).

My issue is with the terms themselves and the idea traditional games are superior regardless of taste, rather than an attempt at categorising. Targeted game development is fine and dandy (though I'd argue that the even the way in which publishers have tried to categorise has been a big reason for the inability to replicate Nintendo's success in the low-end categories except stuff like Just Dance).

 

[Baki]

That sounds fine until you realise that the PS3 had some fairly significant stock shortages in January 2010.

This is true. Demand was way higher last year. They need that price-cut. The $299 range has bottomed out.

 

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

My issue is with the terms themselves and the idea traditional games are superior regardless of taste, rather than an attempt at categorising.

I agree, no type of game or gamer is inherently superior or more important than any other.

 

[Naruto]

Well, they may all be making money now, but considering that Microsoft and Sony both dug themselves multibillion dollar holes getting to this point might have something to do with folks' gloomy view of the industry.

Sure, but can you honestly say that Sony wouldn't sell close to 50 million units at this point had they not invested billion of dollars on the PS3 and Blueray? That's just some bad business decision on Sony's part, who can't turn a profit at this point. The fact that your product is successful doesn't guarantee you make a profit of it. You need to know how to run your business and alocate resources accordingly. That's why Nintendo still made millions with the 'failure' that was the GameCube while Microsoft lost billions with Xbox.

 

[TheOddOne]

Coresual.

Sounds... sexy.

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

While I do agree that the terms "casual" and "hardcore" exist and have their place, they have merely turned into buzzwords that have practically lost all of their meaning.

These terms exploded in popularity in 2007 due to manbabies being threatened by the Wii's success thriving on games made for a separate demographic (women) so they had the need to divide themselves into a separate group to tout their "superiority".

COD is a "core" game as the industry defines it. It has violence, cinematics, and the people who buy it are young males. COD is the ultimate hardcore game.

Defining whether a game is "hardcore" or not is very simple. It all depends whether or not I enjoy it.

 

[[Nintex]]

Know what would be really great now?

If MS used this success and momentum, and came out with some new big core games. Wouldn't that be wonderful?

Microsoft has game announcements planned on February 24, we just don't know what they are, when they'll launch or where they're coming from. People assumed the parts of Rare that weren't into the Kinect Sports thing would show something soon but due to recent developments it seems very unlikely.

 

[Gadfly]

How dare you forget that a system that sells fewer than another system is totally doomed?

You have to wonder why Pepsi have bothered selling soft-drinks all these years. They're never going to sell more than Coca-Cola.

EDIT: On topic, I agree. I really think some people enjoy playing sales more than games sometimes. It's nonsense to suggest Sony STOP putting out these quality titles we all want to play because it's not putting them first in the console race. I understand the interest in sales in this particular thread, but that's absurd. Would people rather Sony stopped making great games because it's not putting them in first-place? I mean, what exactly do you want?

They've probably lost in North America now. Mistakes were made, blah blah. They can continue to stay relevant by putting out great content that appeals to gamers though. That's what they are doing, and it is working. Despite being a significantly higher price and less mind-share (forget the success of the PS2, that's gone), they're still within touching distance of the other platforms. Is it ideal? No. Are they doomed? Far, far from it.

I hope you guys say the same thing once Sony goes ahead of MS WW. All of sudden we are going to hear (not necessarily from you, but from other Sony fans that are sitting out this conversation) about the psychological importance of being the second. Of course it is not going to be worded this way. It would be too obvious. But It would be interesting to see if -you- would come to 360 defense when that conversation starts.

For the record, I agree with you. All 3 have done well for themselves. What Sony has lost is their dominant position and their revenue from gaming is going to be (substantially?) less this generation. The also lost (for now) the opportunity to be the entertainment hub in people's living room which is what they (and Microsoft) are really after. But nobody (I hope) disputes that they are just as relevant (if not more in some markets) than 360.

 

[donny2112]

The thing is every month on Gamasutra it says thanks for NPD's cooperation with this article, that means to me they either give the numbers to Matt or they confirm to him that the leaked numbers are real.

jvm might be able to give more details, but I get the impression that he asks for permission about the numbers he's going to use each month.

Which leads me to if they are okay with mass-media publicly posting the numbers, why don't they do it in their own analysis?

If they give out x numbers, then the media will ask for x+y numbers. If then give out no numbers, then the media asks for x numbers, and less overall data gets released. Pretty sure that's the underlying goal of NPD here. Fewer numbers, the better, in their book.

If the mass-media decides to do some article on Atlus is it okay to give all the numbers then?

If they gave all the numbers to a media outlet for an article and all those numbers were posted, pretty sure that that media outlet would get a letter from NPD and/or possibly no more numbers in the future. jvm is extremely careful with the numbers he gets (e.g. rounding, being somewhat vague), just to make sure that he doesn't give too much and make NPD upset.

 

[Dr. Feel Good]

May not give it a boost, but should be enough to maintain it

I think it's better off for them to wait to drop the price next year, when the game line-up is thinner. This year they may get by by bundling PS3 with their 1st party library.

Also US is just half of the picture.

If console prices are still above $300 a year from now, I fucking done with the generation. The PlayStation 3 has been out for 4 years now. There's no reason the price should not be lower.

 

[onipex]

May not give it a boost, but should be enough to maintain it

I think it's better off for them to wait to drop the price next year, when the game line-up is thinner. This year they may get by by bundling PS3 with their 1st party library.

Also US is just half of the picture.

If software can't boost hardware it will not maintain hardware. Why would I talking about anything other than the US in this thread?

 

[AdventureRacing]

I think _Alkaline_ put it well, games like COD, FIFA, WOW and Madden are mainstream, but they're not casual, not in the currently most widely used meaning of the word. There's a clear distinction between that audience and people who mostly play things like Bejewled, Wii Sports and Kinect Adventures; you just cannot lump them together.

So what makes those games more casual? Thats just you making an arbitrary category based on your own personal taste.

To me a casual game is one that has a low barrier for entry. This doesn't mean that there is nothing there to serve the more core gamers as well (i.e. the ones looking for more depth).

To me COD is the very definition of a casual game. It has a very low barrier to entry and it has lots of incentives for even the most poorly skilled players.

I also disagree that its a completely different audience. In my experience COD is actually managing to attract a fairly similar audience. So many of the people i know who play COD i would never have picked to play games at all. That or they only really play a few games a year.

My issue is with the terms themselves and the idea traditional games are superior regardless of taste, rather than an attempt at categorising.

This isn't how i use the term at all.

Targeted game development is fine and dandy (though I'd argue that the even the way in which publishers have tried to categorise has been a big reason for the inability to replicate Nintendo's success in the low-end categories except stuff like Just Dance).

I agree with this.

 

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

So what makes those games more casual? Thats just you making an arbitrary category based on your own personal taste.

That has nothing whatsoever to do with my taste, I like most of those games. What makes them more casual, first and foremost, is the fact that they are far more accessible from the control standpoint and require far less from players, as far as traditional gaming motor skills go.

You could go deeper than that, but I won't, at least not right now as it's past 2AM over here and I'm just about to go to bed.

 

[jvm]

jvm might be able to give more details, but I get the impression that he asks for permission about the numbers he's going to use each month.

...snip...

Fewer numbers, the better, in their book.

...snip...

jvm is extremely careful with the numbers he gets (e.g. rounding, being somewhat vague), just to make sure that he doesn't give too much and make NPD upset.

All of the above is essentially true, with some caveats.

I believe they know I'd love to get and publish as much data as I can get. I know they want to protect their business. Both of these points are obvious, and I'm sure there are times when they feel I've overstepped the boundaries. Still, within constraints we maintain a good working relationship, and generally have since 2007.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

Okay... not to harp on something, but some of you guys have really weird definitions for what is a mainstream title and isn't.

Any game that can sell in the tens of millions is by definition a mainstream title. Call of Duty is just as mainstream as Mario. It has more complex game mechanics, but for the gamers buying it it's no more (maybe even less) complex than Halo.

It's a more complex game than Mario, but it is no way close in complexity to a truly core title like GunValkyrie.

And even then we're just simplifying the whole thing. A game like Gradius is infinitely more challenging than CoD, with much simpler core game mechanics.

When I say CoD is a casual title, it's only because of it's mainstream appeal and selling power. In that regard it's the GTA of this generation. A game with core games mechanics, but lacking the challenge that stops other better titles from finding the spotlight.

 

[AdventureRacing]

That has nothing whatsoever to do with my taste, I like most of those games. What makes them more casual, first and foremost, is the fact that they are far more accessible from the control standpoint and require far less from players, as far as traditional gaming motor skills go.

You could go deeper than that, but I won't, at least not right now as it's past 2AM over here and I'm just about to go to bed.

Deeper than what? I think even trying to get into a discussion about which is slightly more casual is ridiculous.

They are all popular mainstream games that have a low barrier for entry and plenty of incentives for lower skilled players.

I don't necessarily think that the same crowd who mostly plays COD, madden, fifa etc is the same crowd as the one buying wii sports.

They are both casual gamers just with different tastes.

 

[M3d10n]

Are iOS games listed here? No? Later........

DD games are not tracked. And even if they were, I believe NPD ranks by revenue, so individual iOS games would rarely chart.

 

[GhaleonEB]

I'm genuinely impressed that Microsoft was able to carry their momentum from the introduction of the slim model through Kinect and over to this year. That both the 360 and PS3 will likely see actual price cuts this year rather than just SKU adjustments means they could thump last year's performance. Sony's cut will need to come sooner rather than later.

 

[nextgeneration]

I'm genuinely impressed that Microsoft was able to carry their momentum from the introduction of the slim model through Kinect and over to this year. That both the 360 and PS3 will likely see actual price cuts this year rather than just SKU adjustments means they could thump last year's performance. Sony's cut will need to come sooner rather than later.

Assuming Microsoft cuts the price of the 360, I have no doubts that this will the best year for 360, bar none. Even if they don't cut the price, I would not be surprised if this still ends up being the best year for Microsoft. 360 is going into its sixth year now, and this January was the best January ever for 360, in its sixth year no less. Just amazing what Kinect has done for 360. Kudos to Microsoft - they truly nailed it.

 

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

Deeper than what? I think even trying to get into a discussion about which is slightly more casual is ridiculous.

Well, that's your opinion. I obviously disagree.

Another important distinction is that people who play games like FIFA, WOW and COD often do it religiously. They might only be interested in that one game, but they'll get totally hooked on it and spend countless hours playing it. Gran Turismo is also one of those games. In fact, I bought my PS2 from a guy who got it only to play GT4 and then sell it when he gets sick of it. He rarely plays anything else. Now he plans to do the same with PS3 and GT5.

On the other hand, people who'll play Wii Sports and similar games will seldom get hooked on them in the same way (there's some overlap and exceptions, just like with everything else). They'll generally play anything similar and won't pay much attention to it. They find games just a casual distraction and a lot of them don't even consider themselves gamers - unlike the first group.