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[Sho_Nuff82]

That's exactly what they are. They are full remakes like Mario 64 DS (whether or not they build off of the original code), not just simple ports.

Porting a game to a new engine does not change it from being a port. OoT has the same dungeons, same weapons, same enemies, same puzzles, same bosses. It has the Master Quest mode from the GCN port. It has a boss rush mode.

Fundamentally this is the same game it ever was. Locations, structures and characters have all been preserved. However, textures, models and animations are all built from the ground up, and have been significantly revised. You'll still recognize everything and everyone, but you'll see them as they were originally meant to be.

While there's no doubt characters should only be revised so much, environments are another thing entirely. While the enhanced textures and backgrounds in the game are quite impressive, resulting in some truly stunning locales (Castle Town in particular comes to mind), the basic architecture of some of these areas is still a bit archaic. You'll certainly run into some blocky looking hills and cliffs, instantly recalling this game's rather dated origins. It makes me wonder why some of this couldn't have been touched up. More awkward examples of this come in the form of stairs and open fields, where the blocky nature of the ground combined with more detailed textures makes it painfully obvious you're running up a sparse, flat surface.

All in all the revamped Master Quest, boss gauntlet and hint movies are great, yet it feels like there could have been a bit more. If you know Zelda exceptionally well, the core graphical enhancements are going to have to suffice. Most of these other things, though certainly nice, are merely a different colored icing on a cake that's largely the same. For some of us, experiencing Ocarina of Time through a shinier, clearer lens will be enough. Others will be left wanting, expecting and demanding that the core concept must change to warrant another purchase. Both perspectives are perfectly reasonable. I fall into the former camp.

I don't see how you can reasonably argue this isn't a port.

 

[nincompoop]

Porting a game to a new engine does not change it from being a port. OoT has the same dungeons, same weapons, same enemies, same puzzles, same bosses. It has the Master Quest mode from the GCN port. It has a boss rush mode.







I don't see how you can reasonably argue this isn't a port.

Is Prince of Persia Classic a port?

 

[Kazerei]

Porting a game to a new engine does not change it from being a port. OoT has the same dungeons, same weapons, same enemies, same puzzles, same bosses. It has the Master Quest mode from the GCN port. It has a boss rush mode.

The updated graphics are the biggest change. And don't forget gyro controls.

So what exactly is your definition of a remake, anyway? How much of a difference do you need to call it a remake? Examples?

The way I see it, ports are near identical and involve minimal work outside of programming. For example, multiplats being developed on one platform and ported to other platforms.

Any major changes or features added would mean a remake. Of course, there's such thing as a crappy remake. You can argue that OOT3D is a crappy remake, but it's ridiculous to call it a port.

 

[Jokeropia]

People are no longer buying dedicated gaming handhelds and instead spending $1.99 on a few decent games for their phone.

Nintendo sold 529k dedicated gaming handhelds in USA this month.

 

[donny2112]

Haven't read the full thread, but was this already covered?

and the lifetime U.S. installed base for the Wii system crossed 36 million units.

but Wii LTD < 36m. Any ideas or conclusions on that?

 

[Vinci]

Nintendo sold 529k dedicated gaming handhelds in USA this month.

Typo. Just a typo. There was 'sposed to be a decimal point between the 5 and 2.

 

[jvm]

Haven't read the full thread, but was this already covered?



but Wii LTD < 36m. Any ideas or conclusions on that?

donny2112 I think there may hae been some adjustments to the official LTD figures for all systems. I asked for official LTD data earlier this year and was told that those were not available even on a background basis... very sensitive I think.

Edit: Road, did we agree on Wii when we discussed LTDs earlier this year? I forget...

 

[Road]

Haven't read the full thread, but was this already covered?



but Wii LTD < 36m. Any ideas or conclusions on that?

I think I have it over 36 million.

I'll send you my numbers when I get home.

 

[donny2112]

I think there may hae been some adjustments to the official LTD figures for all systems.

Okay, makes sense. We would used to get occasional LTD updates in years past that would include corrections, too.

I asked for official LTD data earlier this year and was told that those were not available even on a background basis... very sensitive I think.

Hope we get updates down the line at some point, then.

I think I have it over 36 million.

I have it at 35.96m so was also thinking maybe they rounded up.

I'll send you my numbers when I get home.

Cool. Thanks!

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

The updated graphics are the biggest change. And don't forget gyro controls.

So what exactly is your definition of a remake, anyway? How much of a difference do you need to call it a remake? Examples?

The way I see it, ports are near identical and involve minimal work outside of programming. For example, multiplats being developed on one platform and ported to other platforms.

Any major changes or features added would mean a remake. Of course, there's such thing as a crappy remake. You can argue that OOT3D is a crappy remake, but it's ridiculous to call it a port.

I'd argue that even something like Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo HD that has balance tweaks that fundamentally change the game for certain characters would still be a port. A very nice port, but a port.

RE 4 PS2 = port
RE 4 Wii = port
RE 4 HD = port
RE 2 N64 = port
Starcraft 64 = port
Rez HD = port
Marvel vs Capcom 2 Online = port
Phantasy Star Online 1&2 = port + sequel
Third Strike HD = port
Metroid Prime new play control = port
Chronicles of Riddick HD = port + expansion
Perfect Dark HD = port
Ico & SotC HD = port

Actual remakes:

Metal Gear Solid Twin Snakes
Resident Evil GCN
Goldeneye Wii
Silent Hill: Shattered Memories

I'm unfamiliar with Prince of Persia classic.

 

[test_account]

I think that everything have been made from scratch in Prince of Persia Classics, so i would call that a remake.

 

[Kazerei]

.

I think there's another category for games like Goldeneye Wii and Silent Hill: SM. Re-imaginings? Something like that. A game that is loosely based on a previous game, but is pretty much a new game altogether. Other examples would be Metroid: Zero Mission, Lufia: Curse of the Sinistrals, and Bomberman: Act Zero.

I'm surprised that you mentioned MGS Twin Snakes though. It has new graphics, new voice acting, new cutscenes, FPS mode, and better AI. But the core of the game: the areas, weapons, enemies, puzzles, bosses, are all the same. Kind of like OOT3D.

 

[jvm]

I have it at 35.96m so was also thinking maybe they rounded up.

I finally got to my laptop. My total is 35.948m. What about you, Road?

 

[Johnny2Bags]

Is Prince of Persia Classic a port?

No.. but OOT is... OOT used the exact same source code... that game does not... therefore OOT is a port..

 

[Road]

donny2112 I think there may hae been some adjustments to the official LTD figures for all systems. I asked for official LTD data earlier this year and was told that those were not available even on a background basis... very sensitive I think.

Edit: Road, did we agree on Wii when we discussed LTDs earlier this year? I forget...

Looking at the discussion, we just checked the monthly values. I guess you were waiting for that LTD confirmation but I see you never got it.

I have it at 35.96m so was also thinking maybe they rounded up.

Cool. Thanks!

Going through it, the latest LTD update I have in my data came from this: http://content.usatoday.com/communi...ales-marks-modern-warfare-2-2009-top-seller/1

From there on, only adding up monthly numbers, I get to 36.02 million.

 

[BurntPork]

OoT's not a port, but it's not quite a remake either. Nintendo called it a remastering. That really fits it best.

 

[donny2112]

Going through it, the latest LTD update I have in my data came from this: http://content.usatoday.com/communi...ales-marks-modern-warfare-2-2009-top-seller/1

Ah! Through that date, I have it at 70K less, so that could be where the difference is coming from. Thanks!

 

[Johnny2Bags]

OoT's not a port, but it's not quite a remake either. Nintendo called it a remastering. That really fits it best.

yeah That is true... Remastered fits it best. The point is however that it is much closer to a port than the other game illustrated... It remains one of my favorite games ever, but you cannot ignore that they use the same game code and latch it to a 'very' slightly revamped graphics engine.

 

[goldenpp72]

I'd disagree, but that's what the internet's all about.

Didn't see the 360 or PS3 coming with a pack-in game.

You do know the gamecube which was roughly in league with the wiis power was 99 bucks right, 250 is a pretty big fuckin hike to throw in a sensor bar, motion controls, and a modest (barely) jump in power from the system it was based from.

Wii was certainly overpriced, as is the 3ds. Nintendo seems to be letting their success get to their heads, so I don't expect them to price the wii u modestly.

 

[TurtleSnatcher]

So have games always historically sold better in May then June or is that just a fluke and I'm just thinking whatever is in my head.

 

[airmangataosenai]

So have games always historically sold better in May then June or is that just a fluke and I'm just thinking whatever is in my head.

There just weren't as many high profile multiplat releases this month which makes the Top 10 look more modest, that's all. The top release for this month is the top release for the last one, that should tell you everything you need to know.

 

[TurtleSnatcher]

There just weren't as many high profile multiplat releases this month which makes the Top 10 look more modest, that's all. The top release for this month is the top release for the last one, that should tell you everything you need to know.

But I guess it feels like that every year.

Everyone jokes that 'Summer is dead'

But as of late people made comments that May is pretty huge now due to Rockstar taking a presence in the past 2 years. So is summer just generally dead for the industry? Wonder why no one attempts to release those larger titles in June/July. You would think that people out of school would spur more sales.. right?


EDIT: I mean.. Alice, Fear 3, and Red Faction aren't exactly the 'huge' titles of the year. Why are there rarely triple A releases in June/July?

 

[Nuclear Muffin]

yeah That is true... Remastered fits it best. The point is however that it is much closer to a port than the other game illustrated... It remains one of my favorite games ever, but you cannot ignore that they use the same game code and latch it to a 'very' slightly revamped graphics engine.

Well, they did have to make quite a lot of changes to the code. Specifically, changes to accommodate for the framerate increase (20 to 30FPS) resulted in them having to overhaul the whole animation system. Then of course you have the entirely new user interface...

Calling it a port or a remastering is selling it short, it's in a completely different league than Sony's HD "remasters" (and certainly a step above Perfect Dark XBLA). It's better to just refer to it as a remake, even if it does reuse most of the source code from the original game (much like how Super Mario 64 DS used the source code from the original N64 version. I don't think anyone would call SM64DS a mere "remastering")

 

[brotkasten]

Nintendo sold 529k dedicated gaming handhelds in USA this month.

Because this is Sales Age:

220 million iOS devices sold. That's every DS + every 3DS + every GBA.

 

[Rlan]

Well, they did have to make quite a lot of changes to the code. Specifically, changes to accommodate for the framerate increase (20 to 30FPS) resulted in them having to overhaul the whole animation system. Then of course you have the entirely new user interface...

Calling it a port or a remastering is selling it short, it's in a completely different league than Sony's HD "remasters" (and certainly a step above Perfect Dark XBLA). It's better to just refer to it as a remake, even if it does reuse most of the source code from the original game (much like how Super Mario 64 DS used the source code from the original N64 version. I don't think anyone would call SM64DS a mere "remastering")

Perfect Dark on XBLA did the exact same thing as Zelda 3DS -- Completely redid the game's animations, entirely new graphics etc:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmBtHCnhaLM

The Banjo Kazooie games didn't get an upgrade on XBLA, Perfect Dark did. Zelda 3DS is more in line with the Halo "remaster" coming up this year.

 

[Salacious Crumb]

Because this is Sales Age:

Yeah but there's NO WAY that would ever affect the sales of dedicated handhelds and I won't let you tell me any different LALALALALALALALALALALALALA! /thatelusivegafdude

 

[AniHawk]

Because this is Sales Age:

220m ios devices in the us? i had no idea it was that high. that's insane.

 

[Freezie KO]

Yeah but there's NO WAY that would ever affect the sales of dedicated handhelds and I won't let you tell me any different LALALALALALALALALALALALALA! /thatelusivegafdude

Um... Jokeropia was responding to a comment that said "People are no longer buying dedicated handhelds," by pointing out that people are indeed still buying dedicated handhelds. He made no effort to analyze the effect of iOS devices (which are not being bought to play games) on dedicated handheld devices. So basically, that's uncalled for.

 

[Nuclear Muffin]

Perfect Dark on XBLA did the exact same thing as Zelda 3DS -- Completely redid the game's animations, entirely new graphics etc:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmBtHCnhaLM

The Banjo Kazooie games didn't get an upgrade on XBLA, Perfect Dark did. Zelda 3DS is more in line with the Halo "remaster" coming up this year.

That's not true, the animations are still the same (which is why you can see some animations moving frame by frame, instead of looking smooth)

They changed the graphics yes, but the actual game code was mostly untouched (save a few changes in multiplayer, like allowing for the Classic Weapons to be used and the addition of online play)

OoT 3D on the other hand got a complete overhaul, despite being built off of the original N64 source code. The changes are much more substantial.

Again, comparing it with Super Mario 64 DS, the only difference between the two is that SM64DS added a lot of additional content while OoT 3D did not. They were both built off the original N64 source code.

Is additional content the only way to differentiate a "remaster" from a "remake"? That doesn't sound right to me.

 

[GrotesqueBeauty]

Well, they did have to make quite a lot of changes to the code. Specifically, changes to accommodate for the framerate increase (20 to 30FPS) resulted in them having to overhaul the whole animation system. Then of course you have the entirely new user interface...

Calling it a port or a remastering is selling it short, it's in a completely different league than Sony's HD "remasters" (and certainly a step above Perfect Dark XBLA). It's better to just refer to it as a remake, even if it does reuse most of the source code from the original game (much like how Super Mario 64 DS used the source code from the original N64 version. I don't think anyone would call SM64DS a mere "remastering")

No more than calling it a remake is overselling it. Resident Evil on Gamecube is a remake. Metroid Zero Mission is a remake. OoT may have gotten a visual overhaul, but it's fundamentally the same gameplay experience. It doesn't even have Super Mario 64 DS-like bonus content that alters the structure of the game.

 

[Nuclear Muffin]

No more than calling it a remake is overselling it. Resident Evil on Gamecube is a remake. Metroid Zero Mission is a remake. OoT may have gotten a visual overhaul, but it's fundamentally the same gameplay experience. It doesn't even have Super Mario 64 DS-like bonus content that alters the structure of the game.

Actually I'd argue that Metroid Zero Mission goes beyond a remake (It's really a completely different game that happens to use the same setting, story and characters as the original NES game) They used the term "Retelling" and I think that fits MZM perfectly (RE GCN kinda skirts the line here too, but I'm reserving it just for MZM here)

Is Klonoa Wii just a remastering of the PS1 version like GOW HD now? (If Klonoa is a remake, then so is OoT 3D)

For me personally, my continuum of remakes goes as thus.

Emulation: Exactly what it says on the tin, the original ROM emulated (Virtual Console, PS1 Classics etc)

Remastering: Same game with no major gameplay changes but with enhanced image and audio quality (GOW Collection/Classics HD games)

Port: Multiplatform stuff like most PS360 games (Bayonetta, Bioshock 1/2 etc)

Enhanced Port: Ports with extra features and/or slight graphical changes (Tales of Vesperia PS3, Chrono Trigger DS/PS1, New Play Control games, Twilight Princess Wii, Metal Gear Solid 3 3DS, Perfect Dark XBLA, Rayman 2 DC etc)

Remake: Game has had major graphical overhaul and/or major gameplay changes. May or may not have substantial new content (Resident Evil, Klonoa Wii, Super Mario 64 DS, Ocarina of Time 3D, Metal Gear Solid Twin Snakes etc)

Retelling: Completely new game that retells a story with the same setting and characters (Metroid Zero Mission, Goldeneye Wii)

 

[Salacious Crumb]

Um... Jokeropia was responding to a comment that said "People are no longer buying dedicated handhelds," by pointing out that people are indeed still buying dedicated handhelds. He made no effort to analyze the effect of iOS devices (which are not being bought to play games) on dedicated handheld devices. So basically, that's uncalled for.

My statement was just a general response to the iOS news rather than it being pointed at anyone in particular.

dedicated handhelds will always sell decently thanks to kids and gaming hobbyists (I won't say core gamers). It's the brain age and lots of the Nintendog crowd that I think has been lost to iOS devices, and handheld consoles got on just fine before those things existed.

 

[Shiggy]

Actual remakes:
Goldeneye Wii

Huh? That's an entirely new game.

 

[GrotesqueBeauty]

Actually I'd argue that Metroid Zero Mission goes beyond a remake (It's really a completely different game that happens to use the same setting, story and characters as the original NES game) They used the term "Retelling" and I think that fits MZM perfectly (RE GCN kinda skirts the line here too, but I'm reserving it just for MZM here)

Is Klonoa Wii just a remastering of the PS1 version like GOW HD now? (If Klonoa is a remake, then so is OoT 3D)

I'm just being even handed. If you can't legitimately claim OoT is a port because it overlooks the differences, you shouldn't call it a remake, because that would overlook the fact that the core gameplay doesn't really deviate from the original in any meaningful way. Klonoa shares a similarly nebulous gray area, but it changed the gameplay balance with more health and minor adjustments to boss patterns, etc. It also had more original content added than OoT.

 

[brotkasten]

220m ios devices in the us? i had no idea it was that high. that's insane.

I'm sorry about the confusion. Those are worldwide sales, but so is the combined figure of the DS, 3DS and GBA sales. While you can't compare both numbers directly, I'm sure it gives you an idea about the difference.

 

[Jokeropia]

Because this is Sales Age:

See #1929.

Btw, 220 million is not equal to the combined totals of DS, 3DS and GBA. In fact, it's over 10 million short.

 

[SmokyDave]

Um... Jokeropia was responding to a comment that said "People are no longer buying dedicated handhelds," by pointing out that people are indeed still buying dedicated handhelds. He made no effort to analyze the effect of iOS devices (which are not being bought to play games) on dedicated handheld devices. So basically, that's uncalled for.

Not only is the bolded an assumption, I'd happily wager it's an incorrect assumption.

 

[Vinci]

Um... Jokeropia was responding to a comment that said "People are no longer buying dedicated handhelds," by pointing out that people are indeed still buying dedicated handhelds. He made no effort to analyze the effect of iOS devices (which are not being bought to play games) on dedicated handheld devices. So basically, that's uncalled for.

Dude. Just let him have his fun. Seriously.

Not only is the bolded an assumption, I'd happily wager it's an incorrect assumption.

I think he should have included 'exclusively' in there, myself.

 

[lunchwithyuzo]

You do know the gamecube which was roughly in league with the wiis power was 99 bucks right, 250 is a pretty big fuckin hike to throw in a sensor bar, motion controls, and a modest (barely) jump in power from the system it was based from.

Wii was certainly overpriced, as is the 3ds. Nintendo seems to be letting their success get to their heads, so I don't expect them to price the wii u modestly.

Wii brought a lot of other component increase costs too though, like the slot loading DVD drive, WiFi chip, 64MB GDDR3, 512MB flash, SD card port, USB ports, etc. Not that I didn't think it was overpriced, but it also wouldn't surprise me if the production cost was significantly above Gamecube.

 

[Stumpokapow]

Btw, 220 million is not equal to the combined totals of DS, 3DS and GBA. In fact, it's over 10 million short.

I was ballparking it (in fact the 220 million number is a ballpark number as well), but you can edit my reflection to say "220 million iOS devices as of the end of June--sometime this quarter that number will pass the combined totals of DS, 3DS, and GBA."

I mean, I could have went with "if you stacked those devices together they'd fill the Royal Albert Hall <x> times over". My quote was in the Apple results thread and wasn't intended to draw a 1:1 comparison as a gaming device, but rather to give an idea of the magnitude of the devices per se.

 

[Fafalada]

sometime this quarter that number will pass the combined totals of DS, 3DS, and GBA."

That iDevice number is also as fragmented as the 5Bilion or so PCs out there.
And even if you lump it all under the "platform" monicker, the "active gaming" attach rate has more in common with PC market then it does with consoles too.