I guess for now cut and paste, and give MS feedback on the dictionary.
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Learning Japanese |OT| ..honor and shame are huge parts of it. Let's!
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I guess for now cut and paste, and give MS feedback on the dictionary.
TheSporkWithin
Member
Yes, typing is this slow when using non-joyo/jinmeiyo characters. Though most modern IMEs will learn the characters that you use (and some premium ones will actually let you program new macros in directly).
Test type it a few times (10+) and see if it remembers the word spelling. At least this is what happens on an iPhone or a Mac.
E.g. かあい／香愛 KAAI was a difficult name for the iPhone (KA from KAORI + AI) but when you keep repeating it a few times, the software knows it's a regularly used kanji for you, and bumbs it up the kanji list.
Edit: this is exactly what TheSporkWithin already said before me.
E.g. かあい／香愛 KAAI was a difficult name for the iPhone (KA from KAORI + AI) but when you keep repeating it a few times, the software knows it's a regularly used kanji for you, and bumbs it up the kanji list.
Edit: this is exactly what TheSporkWithin already said before me.
Anyone tried うんこ漢字ドリル - Unko Kanji Drills?
I really need a better learning routine... (I do not expect the book to solve it, don't worry).
I haven't tried it myself, but it's definitely all the rage here in Japan right now (see it everywhere). I actually first heard about it from one of my elementary students a couple of months back, and had a quick look through it. Some of the sentences are pretty ridiculous, :lol
what...they made an anime?
https://youtu.be/047VMJlBZxQ
That animation quality blows away any shonen
https://youtu.be/047VMJlBZxQ
That animation quality blows away any shonen
Eien1no1Yami
Member
Hi guys, I would like your opinion about something.
I've been exchanging messages with a Japanese person through twitter.
My intention was to improve my Japanese language skills which are really low(I take the N4 exam this December).
So it's natural that I asked her questions about Japan, her hometown(Kyoto),
that I'm planning on going to the 2020 Tokyo Olympics, stuff like that.
Plus I told her, she may correct me If I used a word in the wrong context or a phrase that may sound rude.
Of course I was asking about other stuff too, like hobbies, anime, manga e.t.c.
To cut story shot, a few days ago she sent me a message and said that she doesn't want to be a dictionary or tour guide for me and kindly asked to stop sending messages like that and from now on would only accept "normal" messages like other Japanese people are sending.[私をguideやdictionaryとして扱わない、他の日本人が私に向けているような日本人にとっての普通のReplyであればもちろんいつでも歓迎しますよ。] This is exactly what she said.
Also keep in mind that I didn't send more than one or messages per month.
So the first question is:
Is there a possibility that I may indeed was rude to this person without knowing it, because of my bad Japanese language skills?I know it's a hard question to answer because you don't have the context of my messages but I really tried to only use N4 stuff.
I also never used google translate,I only used a mobile dictionary btw.
I may post a portion of one of my messages for reference if you'd like.
Anyway enough with the melodrama, I also have a second question regarding something harsher than the above.
One of the things I tried to do in order to improve my skills was to send her a sound file where I was reading a small text I wrote and I would like feedback about my pronunciation in return.
Well although my sensei (who is not Japanese btw) and a few friends who are more advanced Japanese learners said that they could understand everything I said but of course my pronunciation was off because I'm no native, on the other hand she said that he/she couldn't understand anything I said.
And I was kinda devastated when I read that.I mean, yeah, unfortunately speaking
is something you don't exercise a lot if you study for JLPT, but not understand almost anything?That was harsh...
Here is my attempt btw
and below is the text including what I wanted to say
[「こんばんはきっこさん、ジムと申します。 残念ながら、今風邪を引いた、病気なのです。 夏の中に、風邪をひいったら最悪ですね。 ギリシャの気温は、今、３２度で、たいへんめんどくさいです。 まあ、今のところは十分でしょう。 話し過ぎなかって分かったのですが、ちょっと恥ずかしいなのです！」]
She was kind enough to send me a sound file with how she would have said that
This is the file she sent.
and below is her comments
[日本語は、文法や単語については直しました。 しかしまだ、とても不自然な文章ではあるでしょう。 （私の上の日本語もとても硬く不自然に感じられるものです。表現方法を英語的にしているためです。本当に自然な日本語は難しすぎるだろうと思ってのことです。 そしてこれはジムさんの日本語skillに対してのものではありません。他の日本語勉強者に対しても、私はそうしています。 他の言語も当然そうですが、日本語は特に、日本人の暗黙の了解やcommon senseを理解しないと本当に自然な日本語を理解できないと思います（島国の中で孤立して発展した言語だからです。習得には文化や風習を理解する必要があるでしょう）。 ドラマやアニメ、漫画の日本語も大衆に向けて配慮がされているので、本当に自然なものではありません。）]
I mean do I really sound like an anime character?Please be honest and open about this.
Thanks for hearing me out guys.I would be grateful if someone more experienced than me could reply and give his/her honest opinion about this.
To tell you the truth I feel really sad right now because even though I'm working and doing a Master at the same time, in my spare time I study Japanese really hard
and reading those comments felt like a sudden slap to my face.It felt like the earth was shattered into pieces and I fell into the void(That's more like a Greek expression but I think you can get what I meant ).
I've been exchanging messages with a Japanese person through twitter.
My intention was to improve my Japanese language skills which are really low(I take the N4 exam this December).
So it's natural that I asked her questions about Japan, her hometown(Kyoto),
that I'm planning on going to the 2020 Tokyo Olympics, stuff like that.
Plus I told her, she may correct me If I used a word in the wrong context or a phrase that may sound rude.
Of course I was asking about other stuff too, like hobbies, anime, manga e.t.c.
To cut story shot, a few days ago she sent me a message and said that she doesn't want to be a dictionary or tour guide for me and kindly asked to stop sending messages like that and from now on would only accept "normal" messages like other Japanese people are sending.[私をguideやdictionaryとして扱わない、他の日本人が私に向けているような日本人にとっての普通のReplyであればもちろんいつでも歓迎しますよ。] This is exactly what she said.
Also keep in mind that I didn't send more than one or messages per month.
So the first question is:
Is there a possibility that I may indeed was rude to this person without knowing it, because of my bad Japanese language skills?I know it's a hard question to answer because you don't have the context of my messages but I really tried to only use N4 stuff.
I also never used google translate,I only used a mobile dictionary btw.
I may post a portion of one of my messages for reference if you'd like.
Anyway enough with the melodrama, I also have a second question regarding something harsher than the above.
One of the things I tried to do in order to improve my skills was to send her a sound file where I was reading a small text I wrote and I would like feedback about my pronunciation in return.
Well although my sensei (who is not Japanese btw) and a few friends who are more advanced Japanese learners said that they could understand everything I said but of course my pronunciation was off because I'm no native, on the other hand she said that he/she couldn't understand anything I said.
And I was kinda devastated when I read that.I mean, yeah, unfortunately speaking
is something you don't exercise a lot if you study for JLPT, but not understand almost anything?That was harsh...
Here is my attempt btw
and below is the text including what I wanted to say
[「こんばんはきっこさん、ジムと申します。 残念ながら、今風邪を引いた、病気なのです。 夏の中に、風邪をひいったら最悪ですね。 ギリシャの気温は、今、３２度で、たいへんめんどくさいです。 まあ、今のところは十分でしょう。 話し過ぎなかって分かったのですが、ちょっと恥ずかしいなのです！」]
She was kind enough to send me a sound file with how she would have said that
This is the file she sent.
and below is her comments
[日本語は、文法や単語については直しました。 しかしまだ、とても不自然な文章ではあるでしょう。 （私の上の日本語もとても硬く不自然に感じられるものです。表現方法を英語的にしているためです。本当に自然な日本語は難しすぎるだろうと思ってのことです。 そしてこれはジムさんの日本語skillに対してのものではありません。他の日本語勉強者に対しても、私はそうしています。 他の言語も当然そうですが、日本語は特に、日本人の暗黙の了解やcommon senseを理解しないと本当に自然な日本語を理解できないと思います（島国の中で孤立して発展した言語だからです。習得には文化や風習を理解する必要があるでしょう）。 ドラマやアニメ、漫画の日本語も大衆に向けて配慮がされているので、本当に自然なものではありません。）]
I mean do I really sound like an anime character?Please be honest and open about this.
Thanks for hearing me out guys.I would be grateful if someone more experienced than me could reply and give his/her honest opinion about this.
To tell you the truth I feel really sad right now because even though I'm working and doing a Master at the same time, in my spare time I study Japanese really hard
and reading those comments felt like a sudden slap to my face.It felt like the earth was shattered into pieces and I fell into the void(That's more like a Greek expression but I think you can get what I meant ).
Nah she seems to be a dick. Your pronunciation is fine for N4 and I got everything you were saying. Seriously, I did some courses at university a long time ago, where N4 material was studied and your pronunciation is much better than those of the guys and girls in the course.
Also it seems to be her answer is not about your pronunciation, but about sentence structure. I think there's a point to be made that your sentence structure is based on your primary language and because of that turns out a bit unnatural in Japanese. Did you by any chance write the short text in your primary language first and then translate it into Japanese?
Anyway, a natural sentence structure goes a long way and you don't really learn that actively when studying for JLPT.
Also she's saying that's it is not your fault, but a problem for others studying Japanese as well. It seems to me like she actually wants to say that unless you are Japanese, you aren't able to speak Japanese naturally (what a surprise, right?).
All in all it seems she kinda needs to have her expectations fixed.
Also it seems to be her answer is not about your pronunciation, but about sentence structure. I think there's a point to be made that your sentence structure is based on your primary language and because of that turns out a bit unnatural in Japanese. Did you by any chance write the short text in your primary language first and then translate it into Japanese?
Anyway, a natural sentence structure goes a long way and you don't really learn that actively when studying for JLPT.
Also she's saying that's it is not your fault, but a problem for others studying Japanese as well. It seems to me like she actually wants to say that unless you are Japanese, you aren't able to speak Japanese naturally (what a surprise, right?).
All in all it seems she kinda needs to have her expectations fixed.
Eien1no1Yami
Member
Thanks, for your replies guys.
They mean a lot to me right now.
@Resilient I really don't want to cause any trouble to her.So I don't know if I'm feeling comfortable giving her twitter name.
You can maybe tell me what your intentions are and send it to you personally, but I want to know first what you have in mind.
Also one more thing she said and sounded interesting was about japanese people not wanting foreigners to comment on videos or streams
[streamingで雑談としてKYOTOの観光地の話をすることもあります。そういう流れの中であれば私は答えるでしょうが、日本人向けのstreamingでのほとんどの英語のcommentは嫌われるでしょう。 それはもちろん私のstreamingに限ったことではなく、例えば私はFighting gameのstreamingをよく観ますが、日本人向けの日本語のstreamingでも外国人が英語のcommentを打ち続けて日本人がcommentしなくなることや、荒らしが来たと言われることがよくあります。日本人はその時の流れを大切にするのです。空気を読む、とも言いますが、それに水を差すことは最も嫌われることの一つです。 そしてこれはジムさんへの非難ではありません。もしジムさんが日本人のCommunityに参加しようという気持ちを持っているなら、それを常に気をつける必要があるでしょう、という案内です。意図せず失礼にならないためのものです。 少し古いですが、日本では昔「半年ROMれ」という言葉がありました。これは日本人向けの言葉ですが、調べてみると少しおもしろいかもしれません。]
They mean a lot to me right now.
@Resilient I really don't want to cause any trouble to her.So I don't know if I'm feeling comfortable giving her twitter name.
You can maybe tell me what your intentions are and send it to you personally, but I want to know first what you have in mind.
Also one more thing she said and sounded interesting was about japanese people not wanting foreigners to comment on videos or streams
[streamingで雑談としてKYOTOの観光地の話をすることもあります。そういう流れの中であれば私は答えるでしょうが、日本人向けのstreamingでのほとんどの英語のcommentは嫌われるでしょう。 それはもちろん私のstreamingに限ったことではなく、例えば私はFighting gameのstreamingをよく観ますが、日本人向けの日本語のstreamingでも外国人が英語のcommentを打ち続けて日本人がcommentしなくなることや、荒らしが来たと言われることがよくあります。日本人はその時の流れを大切にするのです。空気を読む、とも言いますが、それに水を差すことは最も嫌われることの一つです。 そしてこれはジムさんへの非難ではありません。もしジムさんが日本人のCommunityに参加しようという気持ちを持っているなら、それを常に気をつける必要があるでしょう、という案内です。意図せず失礼にならないためのものです。 少し古いですが、日本では昔「半年ROMれ」という言葉がありました。これは日本人向けの言葉ですが、調べてみると少しおもしろいかもしれません。]
i just wanted to check out her Twitter lol. i got no stake in this. you can PM it if you want.
i find it funny she slammed you so hard over it; doesnt that make you wanna pick yourself up and keep improving, rather than feeling hopeless? you're a new learner, as you said yourself. so your expectations shouldn't have been so high that some criticism like this (honest criticism) would crush you so hard. it's to be expected...unless you thought your skills were at a high level already. which would've been silly, because you just started < and that shouldn't hurt your feeling either.
i'm literally PMSL at that streaming comment. Eien, light up about the whole situation. this person sounds funny and you can probably stand to learn a lot from her conversations. don't burn the bridge of this relationship.
i find it funny she slammed you so hard over it; doesnt that make you wanna pick yourself up and keep improving, rather than feeling hopeless? you're a new learner, as you said yourself. so your expectations shouldn't have been so high that some criticism like this (honest criticism) would crush you so hard. it's to be expected...unless you thought your skills were at a high level already. which would've been silly, because you just started < and that shouldn't hurt your feeling either.
i'm literally PMSL at that streaming comment. Eien, light up about the whole situation. this person sounds funny and you can probably stand to learn a lot from her conversations. don't burn the bridge of this relationship.
no doubt, this is some brutal criticism, but connecting with someone who takes the time to reply at such lengths, with that kind of effort...as long as your feelings can handle it, i'd try and stay in touch. I'd keep conversing with that person so i can keep learning more. you don't learn that kind of stuff out of a text book.
she even made an audio recording to prove her point...most people would have just told you to sod off or ignored you all together.
i dunno, i'm different i guess.
Eien1no1Yami
Member
Ok I sent you her twitter, but please don't do anything funny 
.
Regarding the comment about me.
Look I really want to improve and yes believe me I will try even harder from now on
but that doesn't change the fact that I probably lost a Japanese friend.
There will be others I'm sure of it, but that's just who I am, I get sad easily it seems.
But you have to keep in mind that I'm sad because of 2 very specific reasons.
1)I really wanted to help me improve but as you can see from her comments
she closed the door completely.I wouldn't mind if she was going to be strict but she just doesn't want to help me
2)Because even at my level I think sentences so simple as the ones I made, must be clear to the person your speaking to.My sensei always says that with only N4 level skills you can't of course live in Japan but you can at least have small conversations like the ones I made.Well....imagine if was in Japan or in Athens where we have Japanese tourists and spoke with them like that and they didn't understand shit
How would you feel about that?
Edit:
Sorry for the late reply but no I just thought what I wanted to say in my head and started writing Japanese by using only things I learned from the lessons.
Btw the only words I found on the dictionary where "zannen nagara" and "ima no tokoro"
.Regarding the comment about me.
Look I really want to improve and yes believe me I will try even harder from now on
but that doesn't change the fact that I probably lost a Japanese friend.
There will be others I'm sure of it, but that's just who I am, I get sad easily it seems.
But you have to keep in mind that I'm sad because of 2 very specific reasons.
1)I really wanted to help me improve but as you can see from her comments
she closed the door completely.I wouldn't mind if she was going to be strict but she just doesn't want to help me
2)Because even at my level I think sentences so simple as the ones I made, must be clear to the person your speaking to.My sensei always says that with only N4 level skills you can't of course live in Japan but you can at least have small conversations like the ones I made.Well....imagine if was in Japan or in Athens where we have Japanese tourists and spoke with them like that and they didn't understand shit
How would you feel about that?
Edit:
Sorry for the late reply but no I just thought what I wanted to say in my head and started writing Japanese by using only things I learned from the lessons.
Btw the only words I found on the dictionary where "zannen nagara" and "ima no tokoro"
I guess I'll land somewhere in the middle then: I definitely agree with Resilient that you shouldn't get depressed over this. Her honesty is actually kinda refreshing. The Japanese are not always known to be this thorough and frank in their critiques. The whole 日本語上手ですね syndrome. I think you can learn a lot from her.
At the same time, I'm not sure what the deal is with her "don't treat me as a dictionary" comment. Unless every single one of your messages is strictly about asking questions about the Japanese language and you never try to engage in actual conversation with her, I don't get her response. Also, I hate it when the Japanese act like their language is so special and you can never master it if you're a foreigner. They should get off their high horse already. I'll be the first to say it's damn tough. Having come off of a 4-hour-long Skype call in Japanese the other day and once again realizing how much my spoken Japanese sucks, I won't argue against that. And the cultural component is strong, no doubt. But that goes with any two countries that are fairly different from each other, and we're all grown-ups with functioning brains. You seem to be very hard-working, well-meaning, and you're going out of your way to seek out content that's above your current level, so, good for you. There's no doubt in my mind that you'll go far if you stick to it.
Still, keep in touch with her. If there are things you're uncomfortable with or you don't understand her reactions sometimes, maybe you should let her know? Do it tactfully, obviously, but don't hold everything back either. That'll only bring you down in the long run.
Lastly: of course your Japanese is imperfect. I understand you're still a beginner. But that's what beginners are. My Japanese wasn't any better than yours back when I was at N4 level. Pretty sure it was worse actually. Her comments seem to be mostly about sentence structure, as others have said. They're not very natural, but that's to be expected at first. You'll get there eventually. You don't sound like an anime character though, rest assured lol.
[EDIT] Just read your latest replies: again, I agree with Resilient that she's very thorough. You wouldn't be so lucky with most teachers. Don't burn bridges.
1) I don't think she closed the door completely. Talk to her about it. Maybe you guys just need to reestablish some rules or something.
2) To me, you're working at a level that's already a bit higher than N4. N4 is almost babby level if you ask me. I was N4 when I started my Japanese major, and let me tell you, actually studying the language in college was a wake-up call. N4 is nothing. I'm not saying this to undermine you. Quite the opposite: for someone who's only taking the N4, you're very motivated. That's awesome. Keep at it.
The problem is that you're writing this stuff. Writing and speaking are not the same thing. Even your audio file is just you reading stuff you wrote. When people say you should be able to make small talk at that level, they mean making short sentences about the weather or what you ate for lunch or how to go somewhere by train. Short, simple sentences. When writing, all your shortcomings become much more obvious because you'll be trying to make longer sentences with more complex structures. I have no doubt you could have simple conversations in Japan... But you wouldn't be talking the way you wrote those sentences, and the flow of an actual conversation would be much different.
At the same time, I'm not sure what the deal is with her "don't treat me as a dictionary" comment. Unless every single one of your messages is strictly about asking questions about the Japanese language and you never try to engage in actual conversation with her, I don't get her response. Also, I hate it when the Japanese act like their language is so special and you can never master it if you're a foreigner. They should get off their high horse already. I'll be the first to say it's damn tough. Having come off of a 4-hour-long Skype call in Japanese the other day and once again realizing how much my spoken Japanese sucks, I won't argue against that. And the cultural component is strong, no doubt. But that goes with any two countries that are fairly different from each other, and we're all grown-ups with functioning brains. You seem to be very hard-working, well-meaning, and you're going out of your way to seek out content that's above your current level, so, good for you. There's no doubt in my mind that you'll go far if you stick to it.
Still, keep in touch with her. If there are things you're uncomfortable with or you don't understand her reactions sometimes, maybe you should let her know? Do it tactfully, obviously, but don't hold everything back either. That'll only bring you down in the long run.
Lastly: of course your Japanese is imperfect. I understand you're still a beginner. But that's what beginners are. My Japanese wasn't any better than yours back when I was at N4 level. Pretty sure it was worse actually. Her comments seem to be mostly about sentence structure, as others have said. They're not very natural, but that's to be expected at first. You'll get there eventually. You don't sound like an anime character though, rest assured lol.
[EDIT] Just read your latest replies: again, I agree with Resilient that she's very thorough. You wouldn't be so lucky with most teachers. Don't burn bridges.
1) I don't think she closed the door completely. Talk to her about it. Maybe you guys just need to reestablish some rules or something.
2) To me, you're working at a level that's already a bit higher than N4. N4 is almost babby level if you ask me
. I was N4 when I started my Japanese major, and let me tell you, actually studying the language in college was a wake-up call. N4 is nothing. I'm not saying this to undermine you. Quite the opposite: for someone who's only taking the N4, you're very motivated. That's awesome. Keep at it.The problem is that you're writing this stuff. Writing and speaking are not the same thing. Even your audio file is just you reading stuff you wrote. When people say you should be able to make small talk at that level, they mean making short sentences about the weather or what you ate for lunch or how to go somewhere by train. Short, simple sentences. When writing, all your shortcomings become much more obvious because you'll be trying to make longer sentences with more complex structures. I have no doubt you could have simple conversations in Japan... But you wouldn't be talking the way you wrote those sentences, and the flow of an actual conversation would be much different.
I don't think she's being harsh. She just appears to be someone who has a lot of contact with foreigners, and does not want to be a Japanese teacher for the.
If I get Japanese people asking me questions about English on twitter, I usually just ignore them honestly. She's going above and beyond that and giving you advice.
Also, as a native Japanese speaker, "as a N4 speaker" means nothing to her. If someone said to me "hey, I speak good for TOEIC 400", I wouldn't know what that meant, and would only judge on how easy I could understand.
I wouldn't let it get to you though. There's tons of Japanese people who are happy to help foreigners learn Japanese I'm sure. And rest assured, native English speakers can be super harsh on people who are basically fluent in English, but mispronounce a word of two. Not everyone has a multilingual/international perspective sadly.
I'm not sure how I feel about my thoughts on this, but I remember watching Japanese streams on things in the past, and having the comments spammed with dumb things in other languages was annoying. It's not like the Japanese comments are all meaningful, but it definitely made an impression.
edit: I would also love to know who it is on twitter. Not to say anything negative, but just because I'm curious. If you feel comfortable, please DM me!
If I get Japanese people asking me questions about English on twitter, I usually just ignore them honestly. She's going above and beyond that and giving you advice.
Also, as a native Japanese speaker, "as a N4 speaker" means nothing to her. If someone said to me "hey, I speak good for TOEIC 400", I wouldn't know what that meant, and would only judge on how easy I could understand.
I wouldn't let it get to you though. There's tons of Japanese people who are happy to help foreigners learn Japanese I'm sure. And rest assured, native English speakers can be super harsh on people who are basically fluent in English, but mispronounce a word of two. Not everyone has a multilingual/international perspective sadly.
I'm not sure how I feel about my thoughts on this, but I remember watching Japanese streams on things in the past, and having the comments spammed with dumb things in other languages was annoying. It's not like the Japanese comments are all meaningful, but it definitely made an impression.
edit: I would also love to know who it is on twitter. Not to say anything negative, but just because I'm curious. If you feel comfortable, please DM me!
I totally see your point of staying in contact with said person! Especially since it can be very hard early on to find someone to talk to in Japanese without having to correct their English (or whatever language) writings in turn.
MasterMiller
Neo Member
I have N3 and I'm studying for N2 but the grind is slowly becoming boring, so I thought I should sink my teeth in some Japanese novels or books and learn by reading and experiencing the language. plus it's a two bird one stone kinda thing, you learn new vocab and see it used in a meaningful sentence at the same time.
so, Can anyone recommend interesting books to read in Japanese?
so, Can anyone recommend interesting books to read in Japanese?
I have コンビニ人間 on my Kindle. I haven't read it in whole yet, so I'm not sure if it's interesting, but it won the Akutagawa prize. From the view page I've read it should be good for someone between N3 and N2 grammar and vocabulary-wise.
Also the two volumes Read real Japanese: Short Stories by Contemporary Writers and Read Real Japanese: Contemporary Writings by popular Authors (essentially Essays) are very good. More of a study tool though, but certainly more interesting than any texts you'll find in you Shin Kanzen Master or whatever.
Porcile
Member
Writing a fairly passive agressive twitter message or forum post is not going above and beyond in terms of advice. Come on. I guess I'm just in teacher mode here.
I would be annoyed at that message and it would make me want to study if only to shove it in her face a bit later on, but that's no reason to get good something. Did you guys not watch Whiplash?
火花 or 世界から猫が消えたなら.
I would be annoyed at that message and it would make me want to study if only to shove it in her face a bit later on, but that's no reason to get good something. Did you guys not watch Whiplash?
火花 or 世界から猫が消えたなら.
Eien1no1Yami
Member
@urfe
PM sent
To be honest I didn't expect so many replies, thank you
I will try later to give you guys a little more context on how I found her
and why I think this whole melodrama suddenly started.
@Kilrogg said for example he hates it when the Japanese act like their language is so special.Well one of her comments was that she hates/dislikes [kirai] English and doesn't want to improve it.She finds them hard and only want to use them as a tool.
Her English is not very good btw.
PM sent
To be honest I didn't expect so many replies, thank you
I will try later to give you guys a little more context on how I found her
and why I think this whole melodrama suddenly started.
@Kilrogg said for example he hates it when the Japanese act like their language is so special.Well one of her comments was that she hates/dislikes [kirai] English and doesn't want to improve it.She finds them hard and only want to use them as a tool.
Her English is not very good btw.
Is it really that strange that people will find your Japanese strange if you limit yourself to only using an arbitrary decided subsection of the language?
Imagine how unnatural your English would sound if you completely avoided using a lot of set phrases/figures of speech /etc.
I would strongly reccomend to learn things based on how much you need them, and not restrict yourself to only just the path the jlpt lays out.
going over your line for a bit.
the first thing that stands out here is the huge amount of commas, in Japanese you really don't need that many.
It's something that happens a lot when people still are translating the english sentences in their mind to japanese, rather than start in japanese from scratch.
Furthermore the comma doesn't actually separate sentences, in this case, if anything it forces them together.
今風邪を引いた、病気なのです is the same as 今風邪を引いた病気なのです grammarwise, causing a modification you probably didn't intend.
(In general it's a useful trick to mentally remove the commas in sentences where they're throwing you off.)
also your use of 病気 here is incorrect, making the resulting sentences something like "I am a disease that now caught a cold". If you really insist on using 病気 you could reword to 「風邪を引いて病気になった」 but that's still kind of redundant. Elsewise you can go with her correction "風邪を引いて病人なので".
(also while I'm at it another chance to link this http://forum.koohii.com/thread-6084-post-172890.html#pid172890)
Also I also have to say I'm not really sure what you were trying to say in the last part, I'm guessing that you were trying to say "I realize I've been talking far too little" with "話し過ぎなかって分かった", but that's something that only makes sense when I try reverse engineering it back to english to try and guess what you originally intended to say, for a japanese native its probably just something that doesn't make sense.
keep in mind that -過ぎなかった =/= -なさ過ぎた and verb-てわかる would mean understand by doing [verb], not to understand something.
if it's the latter you want you should try normalizing the clause and following it with -がわかる.
there's also some parts I would have worded differently but this I fine enough I think.
In any case, rather than sounding like talking like an anime character, you just sound like somebody who's in progress of learning the language, which is perfectly fine because you are one., just gotta practice and expose yourself to the language more to improve on that front.
I also used to worry about whether I chatted like an anime character until I spent time reading conversations between japanese people on twitter and realized that my writing was stiff if anything.
in her second message she makes some good points pointing out that your writing sounds like japanese written in an english framework and that you're not really making use of omission much, which is something done normally in natural sounding japanese (part of why giving context is so important when asking questions about a line).
Like when you say "I caught a cold", you being ill is a given so you don't have to explicitly say it.
It's a shame she didn't really explain the "why" behind the mistakes or give specifics, reducing the constructiveness of the criticism a lot, but you can always ask in here I guess.
Alanae going for the double kill
Alanae, she probably didn't go into depth explaining how to fix what he wrote because she'd have to do so in Japanese, which IMO would be even harder for Eien to understand. and she couldn't do it in English either. so, she instead opted to write that other long ass comment...lol. sounds like there is more to the story here. dw, im sure there are plenty of other yu-gi-oh twitter girls out there.
this is a joke post
Alanae, she probably didn't go into depth explaining how to fix what he wrote because she'd have to do so in Japanese, which IMO would be even harder for Eien to understand. and she couldn't do it in English either. so, she instead opted to write that other long ass comment...lol. sounds like there is more to the story here. dw, im sure there are plenty of other yu-gi-oh twitter girls out there.
I liked 紫色のクアリア a lot
Eien1no1Yami
Member
Haha, and I don't even like yu-gi-oh.I found her very randomly.
As I said I will post more on the story later.
Hint: It includes Sakura Wars xD
TheSporkWithin
Member
I dunno. If someone started tweeting me every few weeks asking me inane questions about my country or home state in simple/broken English, or asking me to check their English pronunciation in this recording, I imagine it might grow old, particularly if I was busy. Maybe it would be fun at first, but as time wore on and they were still not really interacting with me as a friend, but as a resource, I imagine it might feel quite bad.
Her tone may have come across as harsh, but it was probably because she wanted to make sure you understood and so she completely cut out any and all roundabout formalities that you would normally use in Japanese. She was speaking blunt and direct, which is how English speakers speak all the time, right? That said, she didn't tell you to piss off, she just said "if you're gonna keep tweeting at me, tweet at me like a normal human being." So do that. React to her tweets. Comment on pictures or things she posts. Be friendly.
Twitter is not a language learning service. It's a great way to read about stuff in another language or even interact with people using another language, but that's not the reason that 99.9% of people are on there. Go on HelloTalk or one of those such things, or get a tutor if that's what you need.
コンビニ人間 is amazing and should be a good challenge for that level. I also quite enjoyed ペンギン・ハイウェイ when I was around that level. I posted about both of them at length in either this thread or the old JP learning thread. I'll try to find them.
I can see where she's coming from with this.
One real example would be the じょにお guilty gear stream, which is a stream of the matches played on one of the cabinets in the mikado arcade.
The comments in the stream are basically a nonstop flood of english, with the occasional japanese post being completely drowned out, vanishing off the screen in seconds, before anybody can react to it. I'd imagine that for the japanese people streaming, and those watching the stream, it'll be quite frustrating for the comments to be an ocean of posts they can't actually read or reasonably respond to.
It's probably not something people will really experience if they can understand english, though.
The asymmetry of languages is an interesting thing to think about.
I see the problem lol You should find someone from Tohoku or Hokkaido area.
Is she teaching Japaese to random person on the internet on a daily basis? Did you clearly explain why you approach her and she was cool with it?
I wanna know what prompted that comment, lol.
I also don't blame her for being salty about it, if you've ever been in a Twitch stream you know what it's like; a flood of garbage. I guess that's the Internet for you. She's fighting for JPN streams, one foreigner at a time!
Double standards. Or maybe a case of projecting. After all - and I say this in the friendliest way possible -, the Japanese suck at languages, so language learning is probably something that baffles them in the first place. Add the whole "Japan is an island" and "kuuki wo yomu" thing into the mix and they start thinking it's not so much that they suck, but that their language is so different that it must be even harder for Westerners to learn Japanese than for the Japanese to learn, say, English. I dunno, just pulling that out of my ass tbh.
Eien, you picked the wrong teacher. Alanae's picking up the slack
.All good points. I lost sight of the fact that this is all over Twitter. I was under the assumption that you were exchanging through a language learning website.
TheSporkWithin is right that it might become annoying if you're on the receiving end all the time. Especially if you ask lots of questions and write long messages and it's hard for her to understand the meaning at times. Must be tiring. Honestly it all depends on the content of your messages and the frequency, but Spork definitely has a point there.
I'd suggest at least offering to help her with her English in exchange for all her help, but you said she doesn't care for it, so eh.
I suggest reading 源氏物語. It's short and full of common phrases.
Eien1no1Yami
Member
Again thanks guys, all of you have really good points and I will try to answer most of your questions.
I think a lot of things you ask or point out can be cleared when you hear more.
For example I didn't want to use twitter either.
I twit almost nothing and only using to see other twits.
But when we first talked and I asked her if she would like to speak using other services she refused and she said she only talks on twitter.
I think a lot of things you ask or point out can be cleared when you hear more.
For example I didn't want to use twitter either.
I twit almost nothing and only using to see other twits.
But when we first talked and I asked her if she would like to speak using other services she refused and she said she only talks on twitter.
???
Am I not getting something?
She's not his teacher, she didn't even agree to help with the Japanese study per se it seems like. She's a person using twitter talking about gaming in her native language. She has no obligation to want to learn English, or to speak which people learning her language. Doing anything in this regard in my opinion is being nice, and it appears like she's done tons!
It seems like massive assumptions are being made, and this person just wants to talk about what they're tweeting about.
Am I not getting something?
She's not his teacher, she didn't even agree to help with the Japanese study per se it seems like. She's a person using twitter talking about gaming in her native language. She has no obligation to want to learn English, or to speak which people learning her language. Doing anything in this regard in my opinion is being nice, and it appears like she's done tons!
It seems like massive assumptions are being made, and this person just wants to talk about what they're tweeting about.
All will be revealed soon... Hopefully.
Well, thats a given since Sakura Wars was involved.
Eien1no1Yami
Member
I get what you mean urfe.I never said she had any obligation.
It's fine if she doesn't want to help.I never forced her to do anything.
Now regarding our talks I will just briefly mention a summary of them.
If you guys think it's inappropriate I won't do it.
The reason I wanted to mention more things is because you don't have a lot of context right now and my goal is to know what mistakes I made in order not to do them again and lose another Japanese friend.
I know one of them of course.Not use twitter or any other service like that, in order to find people to improve me language skills.
I now use Hellotalk and I would like to use Lang8 but registrations are closed right now
The last thing I want right now is another backlash to happen.
Edit:
Ok fine I'm writing it right now, please give me some more time
How on earth can you guys study while in college? I spent all summer going through vocabulary and grammar and I still have so much to learn.... but it's so hard to try and pick up japanese after I have already spent 90% of my day reading, writing essays or doing other homework. My brain is completely dead afterwards.
Do some of you just power through it?
Do some of you just power through it?
some of us do. i work full time though, not in college.
Eien1no1Yami
Member
Well I will not deny it I like Sakura Wars.
Weeb is a harsh word to and I don't really understand why is it so bad?
Do you really know about the series?There is a Neogaf thread about it...
It's considered one of the best games on Dreamcast
But I digress let's start...
I found this person when I saw a Sakura Wars let's play on twitch.
But this person didn't have all the parts and in the description of the videos she had her twitter and some other blogs of hers.
One of the blogs was her travels to Europe and Greece, so it seemed a nice idea to add her on twiter and send her a message, in order to ask about the videos too.
When she replied back and seemed she was interested in talking and we discussed about various things that's when I thought it would be nice to ask her if I can send her
sentences like the ones we post here in this thread.
Yes twitter wasn't the best place to ask that, I understand my mistake, but I had really good intentions.
At first she seemed pretty ok with it but after a few DMs she said that it would be better to use sites like lang8 and not ask herself, so I respected that and I didn't send her a question regarding, japanese language.
After a while, I had another idea.I saw that her English weren't good so I offered to help her translate some her blogs that already had grammatical errors.
Again at first she accepted and we even used a shared google doc that we added comments to each other.
She really appriciated my effort.
I really wanted to help her, because I felt obliged to offer something in return.
So finally when I thought that we were on good terms and we could continue like that, she started making some tweets about hating english
and not wanting to improve but only using it as tool for her work.
I think she made those comments because of the thing we did together.
So in order to clear things out I just said to her, if she would kindly tell if I make some big mistakes.
I'm not talking about small stuff here, I'm talking about stuff that would sound very rude to a japanese person and I wouldn't even know.
I'm really afraid of these stuff.
Well after asking her that then the shitstorm started and she said those things I told you before.
The pronunciation thing was somewhere in between all this.
I also want to answer some of your other questions, but I don't have a lot of time right now
Weeb is a harsh word to and I don't really understand why is it so bad?
Do you really know about the series?There is a Neogaf thread about it...
It's considered one of the best games on Dreamcast
But I digress let's start...
I found this person when I saw a Sakura Wars let's play on twitch.
But this person didn't have all the parts and in the description of the videos she had her twitter and some other blogs of hers.
One of the blogs was her travels to Europe and Greece, so it seemed a nice idea to add her on twiter and send her a message, in order to ask about the videos too.
When she replied back and seemed she was interested in talking and we discussed about various things that's when I thought it would be nice to ask her if I can send her
sentences like the ones we post here in this thread.
Yes twitter wasn't the best place to ask that, I understand my mistake, but I had really good intentions.
At first she seemed pretty ok with it but after a few DMs she said that it would be better to use sites like lang8 and not ask herself, so I respected that and I didn't send her a question regarding, japanese language.
After a while, I had another idea.I saw that her English weren't good so I offered to help her translate some her blogs that already had grammatical errors.
Again at first she accepted and we even used a shared google doc that we added comments to each other.
She really appriciated my effort.
I really wanted to help her, because I felt obliged to offer something in return.
So finally when I thought that we were on good terms and we could continue like that, she started making some tweets about hating english
and not wanting to improve but only using it as tool for her work.
I think she made those comments because of the thing we did together.
So in order to clear things out I just said to her, if she would kindly tell if I make some big mistakes.
I'm not talking about small stuff here, I'm talking about stuff that would sound very rude to a japanese person and I wouldn't even know.
I'm really afraid of these stuff.
Well after asking her that then the shitstorm started and she said those things I told you before.
The pronunciation thing was somewhere in between all this.
I also want to answer some of your other questions, but I don't have a lot of time right now
Porcile
Member
Studying for the December N2. (Yeah, really. Not N1 this time, I didn't do any hard study this past year while I worked, so I'm doing the lower level.) Could pass the N3 easy I think, but I don't study grammar a crazy amount so I gotta brush up hard.
Since I signed up to the test, I just go and home and only think about Japanese study and power through it, to get to the more interesting stuff, like reading novels and watching tv etc. Been a while though so my brain is fighting me all the time while I do the textbook grind.
Since I signed up to the test, I just go and home and only think about Japanese study and power through it, to get to the more interesting stuff, like reading novels and watching tv etc. Been a while though so my brain is fighting me all the time while I do the textbook grind.
Porcile
Member
Disappointing.
Long story short, she got bored of her interactions with you, she unsubtly hinted through some public tweets she didn't care about your translations anymore, but didn't tell you directly (very Japanese.) Afterwards you were still like "これはペンです."
In terms of embarrassing and cringey weeb stories, I give it a 2/5. Congrats.
Long story short, she got bored of her interactions with you, she unsubtly hinted through some public tweets she didn't care about your translations anymore, but didn't tell you directly (very Japanese.) Afterwards you were still like "これはペンです."
In terms of embarrassing and cringey weeb stories, I give it a 2/5. Congrats.
Holy shit that これはペンです got me good