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[Skel1ingt0n]

Was not in the mood to run at all after an absolutely miserable day at work on Fri... but I forced myself to squeeze in a couple miles.

Rested Saturday, and this afternoon wasn't planning to do much, but somehow got going and ran three miles straight without stopping. Slow as all hell, as expected (like... uber slow)... but getting back to just shy of 5K distance without a break this quickly really impressed me; happened much sooner than I anticipated. Looking forward to trying for that same distance again tomorrow, with a break on Tue. Really feeling good already, even if my performance is just a sliver of where it was a year ago.

 

[midramble]

Anyone with experience with sprains and running? I've been on crutches and in a boot for a week. I can start putting some pressure on it and it is no longer swollen like a fist.

Those that have experienced, how long did you have to wait before you could run again?

 

[Fistwell]

Anyone with experience with sprains and running? I've been on crutches and in a boot for a week. I can start putting some pressure on it and it is no longer swollen like a fist.

Those that have experienced, how long did you have to wait before you could run again?

Ankle sprain? Eh, running isn't bad. Lateral movements stress the ligaments and you don't want that, but running straight is fine*, so long as you don't have a funny crooked form.

*not a medical doctor, but I did sprain my ankle many times playing bball as a kid, so lots of hands on (foot on?) experience. Also sprained my bad ankle pretty bad before a race about a year ago, while warming up. Ran on it anyways. Was not worse for wear. Might not be representative of most people's experience. My ankle is/was already fcked anyways.

Obviously, don't run on it if it's sore when putting pressure on it. But if it's just a bit swollen and kinda tender but not bad, as long as you run straight on even ground, it should be whatever. strap it up tight to ensure you keep the joint straight. All that matters is that you don't bend sideways and stretch/stress the ligaments.

That's only if you suffered a reasonable over-extension. If you have had any sort of ligament tear or whatever, don't fuck with it.

(Ignore all the above if it was a knee sprain.)

 

[funkystudent]

Got my first marathon next Sunday.

Bank holiday on Monday and I booked Tuesday and Wednesday off work months ago as a buffer if I wanted to rest.


So not only will I be running my first marathon, I get a 5 day weekend to play Mario Odyssey.


LIFE IS OK!

 

[DatRippelEffect]

Been struggling to come back since i ran Boston and London marathon in the same week in the spring(damn Abbott for having that 6 star medal haha). Something seemed to ache everytime i tried to start running again after a few week break so been seeing a PT since then. Which happened to be a good thing since my form is alot better now. Mileage has been on the low side (mid 30s) past couple months while training for Athens marathon.

I went into the race this morning with low expectations but ended up getting 2nd overall and a 63 second PR. It was a back and forth exchange with the leader for the first 3 loops of the course. Eventually got to a point at mile 9 where i couldn't keep handling the surges he put out as i had to save gas for the final loop. Very happy all in all.

 

[Fistwell]

That's a very nice semi time, congrats!

 

[Sportbilly]

Hello- I was just after a quick bit of advice, if that's OK.

Quick background- I'm nearly 50 and was diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis a few years back. My weight ballooned due to multiple courses of steroids (coupled with 30 years of sloth and greed...) and I took up running to try and get as fit as I could in between attacks.

I don't particularly enjoy running for any longer than about 45 minutes, so I've concentrated on trying to run shorter distances as quickly as possible. I usually try to fit in 3-4 runs a week, one of around 3K where I try and run as fast as possible, a couple of 5K's at race pace and a 'Sunday morning' easy run of around 6K.

The problem I have is that I'm just not improving. I was running 5K at under 28 minutes two years ago, using a 3 min run/ 30 second walk split, and I'm still doing around that now, even without any walk breaks. I was just wondering what I ought to be concentrating on in order to push down towards around 25 mins- shorter, faster runs, or longer, slower runs? Also, I do tend to run almost exclusively as exercise, would doing weights or cross training maybe help too?

Thanks for any advice in advance.

 

[Fistwell]

Hello- I was just after a quick bit of advice, if that's OK.

Quick background- I'm nearly 50 and was diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis a few years back. My weight ballooned due to multiple courses of steroids (coupled with 30 years of sloth and greed...) and I took up running to try and get as fit as I could in between attacks.

I don't particularly enjoy running for any longer than about 45 minutes, so I've concentrated on trying to run shorter distances as quickly as possible. I usually try to fit in 3-4 runs a week, one of around 3K where I try and run as fast as possible, a couple of 5K's at race pace and a 'Sunday morning' easy run of around 6K.

The problem I have is that I'm just not improving. I was running 5K at under 28 minutes two years ago, using a 3 min run/ 30 second walk split, and I'm still doing around that now, even without any walk breaks. I was just wondering what I ought to be concentrating on in order to push down towards around 25 mins- shorter, faster runs, or longer, slower runs? Also, I do tend to run almost exclusively as exercise, would doing weights or cross training maybe help too?

Thanks for any advice in advance.

Hi there! What's your weekly mileage? At the point where you are, simply running a little bit more every week, and being consistent about it. I'm guesstimating 20ishK/week? Progressively bump it up to 30, keeping the pace easy. Once you've hit 30 consistently for a few weeks, reintroduce 'quality', that is, your faster 3K. I wouldn't run it all out btw, try to run it 'comfortably hard'. Look up your 'threshold' pace on jack daniel's calculator. It's coming out at around 5:50/Km. At what pace have you been running that 3K?

Good luck!

 

[Sportbilly]

Thanks for the reply- I run between 12-20K a week usually. I guess if I start bumping that up by say 10% a week that would be a fairly easy way of getting towards 30K within a couple of months.

I'm currently running the 3K in about 16 mins, so about 5:20-5:25/ km. I'm guessing 'threshold' pace is what I should be aiming to run at during training, is that right? If so, that's about what I am doing for 5K training runs- 28-30 mins.

 

[Fistwell]

Thanks for the reply- I run between 12-20K a week usually. I guess if I start bumping that up by say 10% a week that would be a fairly easy way of getting towards 30K within a couple of months.

I'm currently running the 3K in about 16 mins, so about 5:20-5:25/ km. I'm guessing 'threshold' pace is what I should be aiming to run at during training, is that right? If so, that's about what I am doing for 5K training runs- 28-30 mins.

Yeah, 'threshold' is medium hard. There are different variations of it, shorter and slightly speedier, or longer and slower. The idea is that, under exertion, muscle glycogen is used as a source of energy. Lactic acid is produced as an outcome of glycogen consumption. This lactic acid is itself a source of energy, and is consumed to support the effort. However, the stronger the effort, the higher the propensity of the body to be burning glycogen rather than lactic acid. So if you push too hard, acid just builds up, which is one of the contributors to the feeling of tiredness/exhaustion. The idea is that, if you run hard enough that you produce significant lactic acid, but not hard enough for it to accumulate, you train the body to better recycle it. As the body gets better at it, the level of effort at which you can run and for which you are able to recycle without major accumulation starts rising. You're able to sustain a greater effort (and a faster pace). It's one of the keys to building up endurance.Based on your 3K and 5K times, Jack Daniel suggests a threshold pace about 5:40/5:50 per Km. Take that with a grain of salt though. Just try different things, and see what feels 'comfortably hard,' you should feel the burn a bit, but be able to do 20ish minutes without killing yourself.

But I'd think progressively increasing mileage (with no concern of pace) should be the lowest hanging fruit here. I'd try that first, then throw in some threshold/tempo stuff. On the days you're not doing threshold, don't be shy about taking it super easy and smelling the flowers. You get the benefit of easy running no matter the pace (provided you're not, like, walking), and you don't want to be wasting physical and mental energy on easy days. Save your juice for the days where you want to go a bit harder.

Apologies for the unnecessarily detailed answer!

 

[Sportbilly]

Well, thanks very much for the detailed answer .

I have a 5K in Glasgow in a few weeks so it's probably a little late for what you're suggesting to take much of an effect, but I'll use whatever time I do it in as a sort of benchmark for the next few months. It's also pretty obvious that I need to do more reading around the subject and not just go blithrly toddling off thinking that just doing the same sort of thing week after week will lead to me naturally getting better.

Again, many thanks for that, much appreciated.

 

[Fistwell]

Well, thanks very much for the detailed answer .

I have a 5K in Glasgow in a few weeks so it's probably a little late for what you're suggesting to take much of an effect, but I'll use whatever time I do it in as a sort of benchmark for the next few months. It's also pretty obvious that I need to do more reading around the subject and not just go blithrly toddling off thinking that just doing the same sort of thing week after week will lead to me naturally getting better.

Again, many thanks for that, much appreciated.

For different training stimuli, it takes different times to reap the benefits. Benefiting from increased weekly mileage, it typically takes about 6 weeks (during which you kept that mileage, not counting ramping up) to start seeing the difference. A tempo run is supposed to produce an effect in 7 days. Long runs are 3 weeks. Those are rough, indicative numbers, obviously.

Frankly, I wouldn't worry about all this too much. I'd start ramping up mileage now, reduce it in the week of the race to go in feeling fresh, then as you said, use that race time as a starting point to define training paces (as found in the calculator in linked in a previous post).

Best of luck!

 

[Sportbilly]

Thanks man. It's only a Mo Running 5K race and I'm only really doing it to get my youngest involved in the mini-kids' race. Good fun though, I did it a couple of years ago and had a great time.

 

[Gemüsestäbchen]

Half-marathon tomorrow, been training for 8 weeks, even planned it so that I did 14 miles (a little over) around half way through the training - in the mean time GAF explodes, and life has been overwhelming in good and bad ways...
Feel physically ready - mentally not so much for aforementioned reasons.
I mean running usually sorts the head out, but I don't have much time today.

This week - I've done 4 miles, 7 miles and an hour and a bit of leisurely cycling.
Should I go do another 4 miles today?
Is there a point pushing it or should it be light?

 

[Fistwell]

Half-marathon tomorrow, been training for 8 weeks, even planned it so that I did 14 miles (a little over) around half way through the training - in the mean time GAF explodes, and life has been overwhelming in good and bad ways...
Feel physically ready - mentally not so much for aforementioned reasons.
I mean running usually sorts the head out, but I don't have much time today.

This week - I've done 4 miles, 7 miles and an hour and a bit of leisurely cycling.
Should I go do another 4 miles today?
Is there a point pushing it or should it be light?

I'd rest. If you absolutely want to go out, take it super easy and slap on a few strides at the end. Good luck tomorrow, what's your target time?

 

[Gemüsestäbchen]

I'd rest. If you absolutely want to go out, take it super easy and slap on a few strides at the end. Good luck tomorrow, what's your target time?

I'd love to get under 2 hours, but I won't hold my breath as my longer runs have all been on the low gear to get my mileage up, and that 14 mile run I was barely dipping below 10:30 / mile. I'm a bit embarrassed ��

Then again it is a race which is different!
Win of the training? I'm definitely not injuried - and feel like I've been kinder to my body with the extended training phase.

Edit: Forgot to say, I decided to do some core strength exercises and rest today - thanks for that!

 

[panda-zebra]

Thanks man. It's only a Mo Running 5K race and I'm only really doing it to get my youngest involved in the mini-kids' race. Good fun though, I did it a couple of years ago and had a great time.

Festwill's advice is always worth taking on board. Only thing I'd add is I'd mix things up as much as possible in terms of where (and when, if poss) I run. It wouldn't be surprising if you stopped improving sticking to the same routes time and time again and running them the same way.

A bit of parkrun tourism can be useful every couple of weeks if you can spare the Saturday morning, there's quite a few up that way. Having the race-day feel, the timed run and others to pace off is all good stuff. Also, if you've got kids and want to help them along, running the Sunday morning 2k jr parkrun with them is an option, too.

 

[Zoe]

I followed this guide: http://fellrnr.com/wiki/Remixing_Music_For_Running, but had to search for an alternative download link for the BPM Analyser, since the one linked there is down.

I finally got around to trying this, but that app barely read any of my songs.

There's a Foobar component that seems to work much better: http://www.foobar2000.org/components/view/foo_bpm

 

[Gemüsestäbchen]

I'd love to get under 2 hours, but I won't hold my breath as my longer runs have all been on the low gear to get my mileage up, and that 14 mile run I was barely dipping below 10:30 / mile. I'm a bit embarrassed ��

Then again it is a race which is different!
Win of the training? I'm definitely not injuried - and feel like I've been kinder to my body with the extended training phase.

Edit: Forgot to say, I decided to do some core strength exercises and rest today - thanks for that!

Wow, let's say carb loading bloody works, I just ate epic amounts of pasta and haribo during Sat, and I felt incredible during the race today - definitely a difference in usual races - I could feel energy reserves and push harder.
It all started a little not as well, my left foot was tender and some ankle / middle toe complaint, but I just slogged on, thankfully it loosened up by mile 5 or at least I didn't feel it anymore, and I could kick up into higher gear. Really found that pasta/Haribo energy source around mile 7, and a good burst for the final 2 miles too.

Chip time: 02:05:31
Not sub-2 hours but getting there... I managed a 02:12 in March 2016 with meagre training, so glad to have beaten that at least. I'm happy with the time and if anything I'm intrigued at what worked so well with the diet ahead of the race and also trying to resolve my new left foot issues.
Eyeing Paris marathon 2018 now!

 

[Fistwell]

Nice work! Not sure of haribos' benefits but whatever works for you!!

 

[panda-zebra]

Gummy sweets during a long run I understand, cheaper than gels and cliff bloks for a similar boost, but the day before?

 

[Gemüsestäbchen]

Nice work! Not sure of haribos' benefits but whatever works for you!!

Gummy sweets during a long run I understand, cheaper than gels and cliff bloks for a similar boost, but the day before?

Yeah, a bit odd! However I have developed a nasty sugar binging habit recently, I've never had uncontrollable urges to eat in my life, but it was getting somewhat crazy towards the end of the training. Perhaps I'm not eating enough overall to compensate for the running? Anyway, I had a giant tub of Haribo to hand on Saturday - I figured I'm carb-loading and thought "why not?" it's still carbs and some nice gelatin to go with it...
Weirdly since the race and that taste of Lucozade still in my memory, I feel very much off sugar again, but let's see how this week goes back on the "normal" diet.

Been reading about post-half reccovery and tapering back into running, I think I'll give myself about 10 days off, and do strength training, some cycling and start with some leisurely 3 or 4 miles and back up again.
Any tips?

 

[Fistwell]

Been reading about post-half reccovery and tapering back into running, I think I'll give myself about 10 days off, and do strength training, some cycling and start with some leisurely 3 or 4 miles and back up again.
Any tips?

Nothing too specific, just take your time easing back into it. Keep an eye out for signs of over-training. Mood swings, elevated RHB, difficulty to find sleep. If you see a pattern, take it easy for another week or so, or until symptoms go away.

 

[Gemüsestäbchen]

Nothing too specific, just take your time easing back into it. Keep an eye out for signs of over-training. Mood swings, elevated RHB, difficulty to find sleep. If you see a pattern, take it easy for another week or so, or until symptoms go away.

Wait, those are *the* signs :O
I'm been feeling like crap for the last three weeks... And mood swings and sleep issues are spot on... Maybe the rest fortnight is a very good idea.

 

[Fistwell]

Wait, those are *the* signs :O
I'm been feeling like crap for the last three weeks... And mood swings and sleep issues are spot on... Maybe the rest fortnight is a very good idea.

Eh, yeah.... but keep in mind that those are fairly generic symptoms that could be provoked by a number of conditions (including just plain not-exercise-induced fatigue). Do you have a heartbeat rate monitor? The resting value (right before waking up) is also a good indicator.

How do you feel when you go out to run? Do you remember that feeling when you go out and it just feels great, you're just having fun, all the energy in the world? (your Sunday race sounded a bit like that, no?) If you don't have that ever anymore, if it's always a drag and you always just feel sluggish, that's another sign.

In any case, regardless of what causes it, it sounds like you could use a bit of time off. You can still be active in the meantime, walking, spinning/cycling, swimming, etc. I'd also stay away from those haribos honestly.

 

[Gemüsestäbchen]

Eh, yeah.... but keep in mind that those are fairly generic symptoms that could be provoked by a number of conditions (including just plain not-exercise-induced fatigue). Do you have a heartbeat rate monitor? The resting value (right before waking up) is also a good indicator.

How do you feel when you go out to run? Do you remember that feeling when you go out and it just feels great, you're just having fun, all the energy in the world? (your Sunday race sounded a bit like that, no?) If you don't have that ever anymore, if it's always a drag and you always just feel sluggish, that's another sign.

In any case, regardless of what causes it, it sounds like you could use a bit of time off. You can still be active in the meantime, walking, spinning/cycling, swimming, etc. I'd also stay away from those haribos honestly.

Trust me, I'm not even a big fan of Haribo, just the sugar cravings been insane this period, haha. I been trying to get a final kilo or two off from a summer of holiday excess still, and maybe a combo of that and training has been a bit rough on the body.

I'll see how the runs are after this rest period, tbh I have a lot of work commitments culminating next week, and that has both been a lot of stress and time demanding, and I'm thankful to release that time to work.
However running has also been a good mental oasis, so I can see myself reaching for the shoes for a shot run if it gets too much again.
Good idea for the rest heartbeat thing, I'll start making notes from today.

 

[panda-zebra]

it's still carbs and some nice gelatin to go with it...

 

[Gemüsestäbchen]

 

[Fistwell]

Jeebus this place is dead. *pulls up a chair*

So Kevin, how's your Fall going? Were you racing again this year or are you packing it in till Spring?

 

[drtomoe123]

Haven't posted in here for a very long time but on the 28th I had my first real 5k in a few years. Funnily enough, I won this race ten years ago with a 17:22 but it's been a long time since then lol. I've worn glasses or contacts during every waking moment for the past 20 years, so I've been experimenting with running blind (my contacts are both in the -6 range). Training-wise, I've noticed that I feel VERY different (mainly less tense) without them, so I figured racing without them would be fun.

Predictably, I took a wrong turn and got lost during the race lol. It was a rainy morning so attendance was down even more than usual meaning no one really noticed it -- still ended up getting second in my age group with a 24ish time. Even though running a time like that would have CRUSHED my morale when I was younger (I went from coming dead last in my first cross country race to being All-Conference at an NAIA school in undrgrad, so I always figured in the back of my mind that the jig would be up one day), I felt like I broke through a big mental barrier. I've always had SO much anxiety about racing -- to the point where my stomach would get very gnarly before/after races -- but this has proven to me that failure isn't necessarily a bad thing. Anyways, the last few runs since the race have been amazing and the 8 miler I did yesterday felt as fast and uncomfortably effortless as runs from college.

I'm really starting to love running again.

 

[Fistwell]

I had a giant tub of Haribo

You monster!!!! :O

I'm really starting to love running again.

Nice! Congrats on finding your love of running again!

 

[panda-zebra]

Jeebus this place is dead. *pulls up a chair*

So Kevin, how's your Fall going? Were you racing again this year or are you packing it in till Spring?

Yes and no. Apart from a hill marathon on Thursday (nothing I've trained for, just something local and there, a random one I picked in a series of 5 in 5 days) and a 10k on NYE (probably last 10k I'll do for some time, fast course but can be subject to ice and snow) there's that odd point-to-point race where we're being hunted down by elite fell and ultra trail runners in a few weeks, inspired by a TV show apparently, been up in the hills learning a route for that past few weeks and it's been fun.

None of that is serious running though, Spring is where the important stuff starts. Working towards a 50 mile race instead of a marathon this time (L2M Liverpool To Manchester), so be upping the weekly miles and learning to run & stuff my face efficiently - can't wait! After that I'm doing a taster half marathon short course version of an amazing skyrunning race in Wales called V3K, hoping to do the full one the following year but also going to spend a weekend hiking the same route with friends who are running it this coming year.

And 10 months from now I'm going to run the same 24 hour race I did a few weeks back, but this time prepare properly and have some support to help me spend more time moving and less faffing around in the camp site.

So a lot less races but a plenty more miles, if I stay fit and motivated.

What's the plan for yourself? Don't keep it short, someone is still paying for this forum to be sat here in near stasis, might as well feed it some zeroes and ones.

 

[Discourse]

I just bought another pair of Clifton 3's after being disappointed with the Clifton 4. It looks like Hoka's bringing back a few of their most popular shoes but with different names.

 

[Fistwell]

@Kevin, so going towards longer distances then?

I'm not really doing anything anymore, or know what or where I want to go, running wise. I probably will do a 10K on December 31rst, but, I'm not really feeling motivated for anything. Been feeling tired and apathetic towards running since that marathon. I'm also 6 to 7Kg overweight, I'd need to lose that to even hope to do a 'decent' time on that end of the year 10K. Eh. I don't know, lack of light may be altering my mood or some shit? Been struggling to find motivation.

 

[drtomoe123]

@Kevin, so going towards longer distances then?

I'm not really doing anything anymore, or know what or where I want to go, running wise. I probably will do a 10K on December 31rst, but, I'm not really feeling motivated for anything. Been feeling tired and apathetic towards running since that marathon. I'm also 6 to 7Kg overweight, I'd need to lose that to even hope to do a 'decent' time on that end of the year 10K. Eh. I don't know, lack of light may be altering my mood or some shit? Been struggling to find motivation.

What's your long time goal when it comes to running?

 

[Discourse]

lack of light may be altering my mood or some shit? Been struggling to find motivation.

I had this feeling after going hard during the summer months. The change of light up north really gets to me too but I'm trying my best to push through since the really dark months are still to come.

 

[Gemüsestäbchen]

Happy Sunday - just got back from a 4 mile run - pushed myself for once haha and it was a solid time closer to my race pace. Happy about that

Well, the news on my side is that I've signed up for the big old 26.2 mile marathon thang - Paris 8th April 2018 - seeing as I failed to get into London again.
But my goal was to do a marathon spring 2018 so here I am gearing up for that.
I have just under 6 months to train.

I took a fortnight off after the half-marathon at the end of October and really happy overall with the training towards that. I trained a little over - up to 14 miles - and tapered down to the actual race and feel pretty much injury free... Now I'm tapering back up - 7 miles tomorrow...
Aiming to keeping to 4 runs a week - I did something like:
4 miles (quick short distance / fast pace) / 6-8 miles (medium distance / normal pace) / 4 miles (short distance / intervals) / 13+ (Long distance to build endurance / easy pace) + some cycling to work here and there

My question is... Is it really the best idea to train up to 20 miles only?!
I just can't get my head around expecting the adrenaline to carry me over the last 6.2 miles.
I have time - 6 months - and can run 14 miles already.
Seems to make sense to at least get my body used to a little closer of the final distance?
Right now I'm aiming to see how I fare up to 20 miles first, which with holiday season and some trips abroad scuppering my training regime, will probably happen late Jan/early Feb.

Marathon-vets out there - giz us yer advice - please! ��


Edit: Might I add, I am very partial to the fried chicken and treated myself to a fancy meal after the last half-marathon... But motherofgod - the Double Down has finally come to British shores and that is my next treat when I'm back to a >13 mile long run!

 

[Fistwell]

What's your long time goal when it comes to running?

Used to be improving my time on 10Km. I've given up on that and am down to running to not get fat.

My question is... Is it really the best idea to train up to 20 miles only?!

Not an expert by any mean. From my understanding, the common wisdom is that 20 miles is about where some/most people hit the wall. The point is to confront that in training to better be able to deal with it when the time comes in the race. The remaining 6.2miles will feel shitty, but it's around mile 20 that the magic happens, from "I'm OK/this aint shit" to "wtf send halp." Once you've seen that firsthand, you get the idea about the remaining 6.2.

Reality is a lot messier of course. Different people have different levels of energy reserves, nutrition (both in-race and day-to-day) can move the needle either way, fat adaptation, pace relative to your fitness level, fatigue level, etc. Bottom line is, you want to be doing what you can in training to prepare for the distance, but need to balance that with not killing yourself. So take it as far as is reasonable. Try to push it to 20 and see how you feel. Account for that on race day. If 20 killed you, run conservative. If you felt good, run conservative too!!! (maybe slightly less so). 20 just straddles that line between ambitious but not too much in a lot of people's minds. Honestly though, it's one of those bro-science numbers that people parrot without much thought (myself included), like 80/20, 180steps/min, and 10%/week.

An alternative is to go by time. If the target's 4 hours, spend 3 hours jog-walking, drink fluids/gorge on haribos, then do one hour around target pace. You'll get your body used to running on tired legs.